The Royal Navy's Type 45 Destroyer

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

asif iqbal said:

stunning task force, just makes you wonder, if UK would just not have these backward politican we could be the best in the world

if it comes down it and if asked, UK military industry can make if not equal then better than Americans, yet we always like to go for "off the shelf" items

we should have made 16 Type 26 frigates and 12 Type 45 destroyers

in addition we have no replacement for HMS Ocean LHD or the 2 LPDS, HMS Albion and Bulwark, infact Albion came under Strategic Defence and Security Review

we could still do with new LHDs and LPDs

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The UK is now in a similar situation as The Netherlands were in the 18th century: too small and too poor to keep up with the big boys.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Jeff or Obi Wan, do any of you know how far the interoperability between the combat systems of different NATO navies go? I can certainly imagine a Daring & Tico or Nimitz can share data to create a common air picture. But can one ship in a flotilla act as a master asset do direct weapon employment of the others? Or would assets with different systems cover dedicated sectors and handle those on their own?
I'd guess AEGIS can't guide Aster missiles & vice versa, but it should be possible for it to direct a Sampson equipped asset to attack specific targets and the other way around.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

UK military industry can make if not equal then better than Americans

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In what aspect? I feel if they could..they would.

The political will to keep a strong military is slowly sinking in the UK. I hope this trend ends soon and the UK military strenght is re-vised. The new CVF is a great place to start.

Jeff or Obi Wan, do any of you know how far the interoperability between the combat systems of different NATO navies go?

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I know there is great interoperability among NATO nations navies. But to what extent outside of the AGEIS sphere I do not know.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Scratch said:

Jeff or Obi Wan, do any of you know how far the interoperability between the combat systems of different NATO navies go? I can certainly imagine a Daring & Tico or Nimitz can share data to create a common air picture. But can one ship in a flotilla act as a master asset do direct weapon employment of the others? Or would assets with different systems cover dedicated sectors and handle those on their own?
I'd guess AEGIS can't guide Aster missiles & vice versa, but it should be possible for it to direct a Sampson equipped asset to attack specific targets and the other way around.

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With AEGIS and cooperative engagement capabilities, they certainly can...and the other vessel does not have to be AEGIS to do so. For example, one of the benefits the ROC got with the four Kidd Class Destroyers was the ability through the latest data link, the new threat upgrade, and other C4 comms, was for those ships to hand off their engagement capabilities to a US AEGIS vessel when needed.

The JMSDF can do the same thing.

I would not be surprised to see a similar capability with the Darings at some point, and perhaps with the Spanish, perhaps some Italian systems and German too. But those are less likely outside of the Spanish AEGIS frigates.

I expect the new Aussie DDGs will be able to do so as well.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

bd popeye said:

In what aspect? I feel if they could..they would.

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like the Chinnok fiasco, the F35 deal the £3.5 million night vision goggles that went missing from the MOD or like the £20 billion "black hole"

if BAE can offer Indian tender a naval varient of the Typhoon how come we didnt make one for ourselves, yet we bought F35, which is already years late and overbudget

point is, UK has the talent pool to make the worlds frontline military equipment, the reason we dont is because of political decisons which hinder our development

when it comes to innovation UK leads the way and has done for decades, Type 45 is a good ship but could have been better, if it wasnt for the continual interfence from goverment changing the requirments, for example Harpoon missiles

if UK turned in on itself and started investing in its own programmes, hadntt gone into Iraq war and spend billions, with ease we could have afforded 12 Type 45 destroyers and 16 Type 26 frigates, but our leader followed US in the war and look what we got, the list goes on

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

delft said:

The UK is now in a similar situation as The Netherlands were in the 18th century: too small and too poor to keep up with the big boys.

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That's drivel. The UK has some of the best kit in the world and is still one of the top spenders in the world. Apart from the US and China countries only move ahead of it when the exchange rate moves around.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

delft said:

The UK is now in a similar situation as The Netherlands were in the 18th century: too small and too poor to keep up with the big boys.

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I don't think it is that bad at all.

The UK has some of the best equipment in the world and continues to develop and build and add to them. It is true they cannot afford a lot of them right now (which could change with the economy), but the following classes are all among the top 3 vessels in the world in their class:

The All six launched, 2 left to commission
The 2 building
The 2 Compleyted, 2 under construction, 7 planned
The All 4 completed
The Single vessel completed

All top of the line, and the UK will have enough of them to pose a serious threat to anyone threatening them, either through defensive or offensive operations.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Jeff Head said:

I don't think it is that bad at all.

The UK has some of the best equipment in the world and continues to develop and build and add to them. It is true they cannot afford a lot of them right now (which could change with the economy), but the following classes are all among the top 3 vessels in the world in their class:

The

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All six launched, 2 left to commission
The

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2 building
The

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2 Compleyted, 2 under construction, 7 planned
The

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All 4 completed
The

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Single vessel completed

All top of the line, and the UK will have enough of them to pose a serious threat to anyone threatening them, either through defensive or offensive operations.

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I am just reading, at last - I bought the book forty years ago or more- second hand, "Scientist and War", by Sir Solly Zuckerman, ( Library of Congress Card Number 67-11333 ). He explains that the UK can only build a few ships or aircraft of a type they develop thus making the development cost a huge part of the total cost, this then leading to a reduction of the original production plan. This was in the '60's and, as he predicted, the situation has become worse. Think of building two flattops and offering one for sale immediately after building started. The situation is nearly as bad for France. I know the situation from Dutch history, from the 18th century but also from the 1920's when a government fell on the matter of building battle cruisers for the defense of the Dutch colony that has now become Indonesia.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

delft said:

I am just reading, at last - I bought the book forty years ago or more- second hand, "Scientist and War", by Sir Solly Zuckerman, ( Library of Congress Card Number 67-11333 ). He explains that the UK can only build a few ships or aircraft of a type they develop thus making the development cost a huge part of the total cost, this then leading to a reduction of the original production plan. This was in the '60's and, as he predicted, the situation has become worse...

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I haven't read the book, but at best he's working on old information. Let's take the Type 45 class. Originally 12 were planned, but the Royal Navy only ended up with 6. That might seem to reinforce what Zuckerman is talking about. However, in reality the problem was that the last Labour government ran the Ministry of Defence poorly. Politicians and civil servants constantly quibbled about budgets or wanted ships redesigned because they thought they understood what the destroyers needed to do.

It has been suggested that if the 12 ships had been ordered as originally planned and paid for in a timely way, the total cost would not have been very significantly more than what the 6 ended up costing us because the unit cost of the later ones would have been hugely reduced (and also because extra money was paid for the 6 to have them built more slowly to keep people employed when the extra ships weren't ordered). At the very least we could have got 8 more-or-less for the price of 6.

If we're talking about aircraft carriers, the simple fact is that we only need two. We don't have an extended overseas empire to defend. The small island groups that are still under our protection don't warrant having a carrier group permanently stationed within striking distance. And for the eternal concern of an attack on the Falklands, I think we can rely on RAF Mount Pleasant for the foreseeable future.

Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Obi Wan Russell said:

Probably had a 'Brainfart' and meant to say propellor driven aircraft, eg Hawkeye or Greyhound. Then again could be stupid people in the web department as you say!

And Jeff, just for you here is an artist's impression of a CVF with two T45s, a Wave class auxilliary and an Astute class SSN!
Perhaps you could do your photoshop magic and convert this one to CATOBAR!

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I roger that...great pic! and WILCO. I hope to have it up on my QE web site at World Wide Aircraft Carriers tonight possibly...though now you're cutting into sacred model building time in the evening after work, LOL!