The Royal Navy's Type 45 Destroyer

D

delft

Brigadier
Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Mr T said:
I haven't read the book, but at best he's working on old information. Let's take the Type 45 class. Originally 12 were planned, but the Royal Navy only ended up with 6. That might seem to reinforce what Zuckerman is talking about. However, in reality the problem was that the last Labour government ran the Ministry of Defence poorly. Politicians and civil servants constantly quibbled about budgets or wanted ships redesigned because they thought they understood what the destroyers needed to do.

It has been suggested that if the 12 ships had been ordered as originally planned and paid for in a timely way, the total cost would not have been very significantly more than what the 6 ended up costing us because the unit cost of the later ones would have been hugely reduced (and also because extra money was paid for the 6 to have them built more slowly to keep people employed when the extra ships weren't ordered). At the very least we could have got 8 more-or-less for the price of 6.

If we're talking about aircraft carriers, the simple fact is that we only need two. We don't have an extended overseas empire to defend. The small island groups that are still under our protection don't warrant having a carrier group permanently stationed within striking distance. And for the eternal concern of an attack on the Falklands, I think we can rely on RAF Mount Pleasant for the foreseeable future.
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Zuckerman commented on the increasing cost of development before you even decide on building new weapons and on the increasing likelihood that you meet trouble you cannot pay to resolve. He mentions as an example the TSR.2.The trend he identifies has continued ever since.
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bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

asif iqbal.thank you for you most excellent response. And I agree with most of what you state.

point is, UK has the talent pool to make the worlds frontline military equipment, the reason we dont is because of political decisons which hinder our development
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exactly..

The political will to keep a strong military is slowly sinking in the UK. I hope this trend ends soon and the UK military strenght is re-vised. The new CVF is a great place to start.
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Obi Wan Russell said:
Probably had a 'Brainfart' and meant to say propellor driven aircraft, eg Hawkeye or Greyhound. Then again could be stupid people in the web department as you say!

And Jeff, just for you here is an artist's impression of a CVF with two T45s, a Wave class auxilliary and an Astute class SSN!
Perhaps you could do your photoshop magic and convert this one to CATOBAR!
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As promised...here she is...got some crew on deck as well...check out the helo aft.

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And here's two US pics to go along that I know you will like.

1st here's the USS Enterprise Carrier Strike Group underway for the Big E's last deployment:

120319-N-FI736-510.jpg


(One day two such CSGs, the US with a Ford Class carrier, and the UK one seen above will conduct maneuvers together. That will be one nice site.

Then, a Burke DDG navigates heavy swells next to the USS Enterprise:

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Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Wow that picture with the burke and the guys on the carrier is something. Looks like the carrier crew are watching a massive screen.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: UK Royal Navy's Daring has an "amazing" experience with US Navy Aircraft Carriers

Bltizo said:
Wow that picture with the burke and the guys on the carrier is something. Looks like the carrier crew are watching a massive screen.
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The carrier is staying pretty steady...of course it masses 10X the Burke. Look how many of the Carrier personnel are clicking pics with their cell phones and cameras. LOL!

Look at the guys on the bridge of the Burke. Dangerous place to be outside of the enclosed spaces it seems in those seas.
 
S

steve_rolfe

Junior Member
I could spend a long time writing about the tragedy of UK Defence politics from 1997 onwards, but.........

Anyway, ive been aboard a Type 45 Destroyer, HMS Daring in fact, and it was a truly impressive vessel.

The 2 things that stood out to me were firstly the improved space for people to walk around, compared to other vessels such as the Type 23 Frigate, and the very impressive weapons control room, with its very high tech clinical layout.

It is a tragedy that the UK will only get 6 of these vessels, when i personally think that 8 is the minimum really needed (considering not all vessels are available to be at sea).

What i dont understand, is why the Harpoons havnt been added, to give the vessels an attack capability.
The design of the type 45 was catered for them...and i know originally they werent fitted because of costs...........BUT
as the type 22 Frigates have been decommissioned, the Harpoons they had on them could be fitted on to the first 4 Type 45's. Has the Mod stashed them away in a shed somewhere and forgotton about them, or will they be fitted at a later refit date for the type 45's?

I mean so far, the only update to the Type 45's has been the Phalanx CIWS.
 
D

delft

Brigadier
OT
I once had a book about railway guns ( from the Ballantine series about war ) in which was told a story about an officer sent out in 1940 to look for a place to position an 18" gun to fire over Dover Strait. He found a nice valley for his gun and, surprise, it already had a convenient rail track. He followed the track and found a large shed that, looking through a window, clearly contained some machinery. Then a suspicious rustic appeared to which he explained his errant, who then answered that he was paid weekly by way of the post office to oil the 18" gun that had been standing there since WWI. "And you didn't know it was there, sir?"
 
asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
considering the price tag of £1.1 billion thats around $1.75 billion per ship, Tomahawk and Harpoon should have been a pre-request even before the order was placed, none of these requirments would compromise the dedicated air defence it is to provide

this ship is only able to defend itself, it does it really well but simply cant attack, that is a severe handicap no matter how well it defends itself
 
S

steve_rolfe

Junior Member
asif iqbal said:
considering the price tag of £1.1 billion thats around $1.75 billion per ship, Tomahawk and Harpoon should have been a pre-request even before the order was placed, none of these requirments would compromise the dedicated air defence it is to provide

this ship is only able to defend itself, it does it really well but simply cant attack, that is a severe handicap no matter how well it defends itself
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Exactly.............would anyone here feel safe to be on a ship that can only really defend itself against an aerial threat.

I was onboard a type 22 frigate a couple of years ago...and though these these ships were getting on a bit they were probably the best all round vessels the RN had...with VLS SeaWolf, Harpoons, torpedoes, and Goalkeeper CIWS systems.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Obi Wan Russell said:
I grew up with regular news stories on TV and in the local press about warships and commercial vessels under construction. Illustrious and Ark Royal for example. T42s and T22s as well. The decline of the shipbuilding industry was nothing to do with the quality of workmanship.

I would like the full order for twelve, but it's not going to happen. The production line is winding down now with just the last two ships to complete. After the Carriers, the next project will be the Type 26 Frigate programme.!
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Speaking of the carriers, Obi. You might be interested in one of the major foreign policy planks of a
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for the next 15 years I am sending to the US Naval Institute and some of the Military advisors for Romney. This one has to do with the UK carriers. May not help...maybe too late...but it needs to be said and then maybe acted upon by a new US admin IMHO:

JLH National Security & Military Posture Proposal - UK Aircraft Carriers said:
Urge the UK to build both of its new carriers in the catapault take-off and barrier assisted landing (CATOBAR) configuration, assisting them financially if necessary so that F-18, F-35, E-2D and other aircraft crossdecking can occur.

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If you get a chance, read through the whole thing...but no discussion on the political aspects here on SD, just the military, and there's lots of military eye-candy there to consider.
 
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