The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
i am fully aware i've talked about this before but i'm hoping maybe someone has some new info. just how is it possible that so many J7II regiments are still active? According to Scramble, those are all planes produced roughly between 1980 and 1986. (give or take a year)

Either those planes have been flying something like 100 hours per year since then (for a total per j7 pilots of i guess 75 hours, not more) or those planes are engineered in a totally different fashion from basic mig-21, having many more hours in their airframes compared to basic mig21, or the usually accepted figures about j7 regiments and years of production are flat out wrong.

as far i could find, basic mig21 was to have 2400 hours. of course that can be extended, like indians did with theirs to get them to 3400 hours. They tried to get them to 4000 hours but it reportedly proved impossible (within their budget). While i could accept the redesigned j7e/g variants to also have a longer life airframe from the get go, it doesn't seem plausible J7II model would have had anything like that redesigned from the original mig-21 plans.

right now i'm leaning towards those J7II regiments being really third-rate regiments for occasional air policing, but not really doing much flying or much exercising. With no more than 100 hours per plane one could still keep that whole fleet in the air, i guess, and that seems like the easiest explanation. Question would be: why do that? Why keep so many pilots as third rate pilots without proper training? If one wants to save money, wouldn't it be more cost effective to just cut all those regiments and do it years ago?

The only remaining explanation i can think of is that plaaf does intend to have all those regiments up and running as full time and fully trained regiments - once they get new planes. maybe there was a lack of money during the last 5-15 years but maybe they think it's cheaper in the long run to keep the pilots and infrastructure going, even if it's just half of flight hours per year as many as they'd want to, then to retire all those regiments, lay off the ground crews and pilots, and then go with re-starting all those regiments anew in another decade or so...
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
i am fully aware i've talked about this before but i'm hoping maybe someone has some new info. just how is it possible that so many J7II regiments are still active? According to Scramble, those are all planes produced roughly between 1980 and 1986. (give or take a year)

Either those planes have been flying something like 100 hours per year since then (for a total per j7 pilots of i guess 75 hours, not more) or those planes are engineered in a totally different fashion from basic mig-21, having many more hours in their airframes compared to basic mig21, or the usually accepted figures about j7 regiments and years of production are flat out wrong.

as far i could find, basic mig21 was to have 2400 hours. of course that can be extended, like indians did with theirs to get them to 3400 hours. They tried to get them to 4000 hours but it reportedly proved impossible (within their budget). While i could accept the redesigned j7e/g variants to also have a longer life airframe from the get go, it doesn't seem plausible J7II model would have had anything like that redesigned from the original mig-21 plans.

right now i'm leaning towards those J7II regiments being really third-rate regiments for occasional air policing, but not really doing much flying or much exercising. With no more than 100 hours per plane one could still keep that whole fleet in the air, i guess, and that seems like the easiest explanation. Question would be: why do that? Why keep so many pilots as third rate pilots without proper training? If one wants to save money, wouldn't it be more cost effective to just cut all those regiments and do it years ago?

The only remaining explanation i can think of is that plaaf does intend to have all those regiments up and running as full time and fully trained regiments - once they get new planes. maybe there was a lack of money during the last 5-15 years but maybe they think it's cheaper in the long run to keep the pilots and infrastructure going, even if it's just half of flight hours per year as many as they'd want to, then to retire all those regiments, lay off the ground crews and pilots, and then go with re-starting all those regiments anew in another decade or so...

Just my thoughts, but it could be that:

a) The PLAAF has so much infrastructure in place around the J-7 that it will take a long time to eliminate it completely as they transition over to the J-10 and J-11;

b) The J-7s manufactured in the late 1990 and early 2000s were constructed with better machinery and construction techniques which improved overall life of the airframe;

c) The J-7 is cheap to build and cheap to maintain and thereby provides an inexpensive combat aircraft that can provide pilots with an acceptable number of flight hours.

Interesting that the FTC-2000/JL-9 is currently being manufactured and utilized as a naval trainer. There has even been a heavily modified version (FTC-2000G) with curved LEX and additional hard points. I don’t think the PLAAF is done with the J-7 yet, but its days are defiantly numbered.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Question would be: why do that? Why keep so many pilots as third rate pilots without proper training? If one wants to save money, wouldn't it be more cost effective to just cut all those regiments and do it years ago?

J-7 was mainstay of PLAAF until something like 10 years ago when Flankers and J-10s started to show up in numbers. Therefore you have a lot of older pilots and technicians trained to operate on J-7s . A lot of them are not really material for J-10 or J-11, or in other words in would not be cost effective to retrain them for those newer types (average pilots, few years until retirement etc... ) . On the other hand, you cannot just dump people on the street, it would be disastrous for force moral. Therefore, they are gradually retiring both planes and personnel. As far as I know, PLAAF doesn't train any new (young) J-7 pilots.
 

vesicles

Colonel
J-7 was mainstay of PLAAF until something like 10 years ago when Flankers and J-10s started to show up in numbers. Therefore you have a lot of older pilots and technicians trained to operate on J-7s . A lot of them are not really material for J-10 or J-11, or in other words in would not be cost effective to retrain them for those newer types (average pilots, few years until retirement etc... ) . On the other hand, you cannot just dump people on the street, it would be disastrous for force moral. Therefore, they are gradually retiring both planes and personnel. As far as I know, PLAAF doesn't train any new (young) J-7 pilots.

I thought most of the new J-10 regiments have been converted from old J-7 regiments because these pilots have been trained well in air to air combats... PLAAF still maintain J-7 regiments because they want to slowly convert them to J-10. While they are doing that, they want to keep the remaining pilots fresh. Thus, they need to keep the planes (J-7) well-maintained as well.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
I thought most of the new J-10 regiments have been converted from old J-7 regiments because these pilots have been trained well in air to air combats... PLAAF still maintain J-7 regiments because they want to slowly convert them to J-10. While they are doing that, they want to keep the remaining pilots fresh. Thus, they need to keep the planes (J-7) well-maintained as well.

If some J-7 regiment starts conversion to J-10 that doesn't mean each and every pilot from that regiment will be retrained on J-10. Instead, less perspective ones would transfer to another J-7 regiment, and more perspective pilots from other regiments would join new J-10 regiment.

As in any other air force, better pilots tend to get better machines .As time goes by, remaining J-7 regiments would accumulate older and less capable pilots, until they are completely phased out .
 

vesicles

Colonel
If some J-7 regiment starts conversion to J-10 that doesn't mean each and every pilot from that regiment will be retrained on J-10. Instead, less perspective ones would transfer to another J-7 regiment, and more perspective pilots from other regiments would join new J-10 regiment.

As in any other air force, better pilots tend to get better machines .As time goes by, remaining J-7 regiments would accumulate older and less capable pilots, until they are completely phased out .

True, however I think I heard from someone on this forum a few years back that the PLAAF seems to specifically convert J-7 units to J-10 units because of the specialized air to air combat training they got. So it's not like they are only picking the good pilots out of any units (be it J-7 or J-8). and put them together for the new J-10 units. They seems to prefer J-7 pilots for the conversion and convert the entire J-7 units to J-10 while keeping the unit intact. Of course they will pick the better pilots out of all the J-7 pilots available. However, I think they are keeping the J-7 units intact and active not as a retirement policy but for the intention to convert them to J-10 units.

There are so many cheaper ways to keep those old pilots employed. Can you imagine spending all that money to maintain those J-7's and keeping them active just to keep those pilots and technicians employed? The PLAAF is huge. They can easily find other jobs for these guys without having to waste all that money on the J-7. Don't forget that the PLA downsized itself multiple times within the last couple decades and cut hundreds of thousands of personnel. They did this by putting the extra personnel into PAP and other jobs. I am sure they can find some other jobs for a few hundred pilots and technicians if they intend to cut them.
 
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thunderchief

Senior Member
True, however I think I heard from someone on this forum a few years back that the PLAAF seems to specifically convert J-7 units to J-10 units because of the specialized air to air combat training they got. So it's not like they are only picking the good pilots out of any units (be it J-7 or J-8). and put them together for the new J-10 units. They seems to prefer J-7 pilots for the conversion and convert the entire J-7 units to J-10 while keeping the unit intact. Of course they will pick the better pilots out of all the J-7 pilots available. However, I think they are keeping the J-7 units intact and active not as a retirement policy but for the intention to convert them to J-10 units.

Well, would you convert H-6 regiments to J-10 ? ;) J-7 was designed primarily as air-superiority fighter&interceptor, and so is J-10. It is only natural to convert J-7 regiments to J-10 . On the other hand, J-8 is more of heavy fighter, so it is more logical to convert those units to Flankers (although some did convert to J-10) . As far as I know, no Q-5 units converted to J-10.

There are so many cheaper ways to keep those old pilots employed. Can you imagine spending all that money to maintain those J-7's and keeping them active just to keep those pilots and technicians employed? The PLAAF is huge. They can easily find other jobs for these guys without having to waste all that money on the J-7. Don't forget that the PLA downsized itself multiple times within the last couple decades and cut hundreds of thousands of personnel. They did this by putting the extra personnel into PAP and other jobs. I am sure they can find some other jobs for a few hundred pilots and technicians if they intend to cut them.

Well , there are no many cheaper ways to keep them employed except to give them pay for basically doing nothing, which is always very bad. Otherwise, they would have to retrain them for other duties and that costs money . As J-7 pilots and technicians they still have useful functions, as this plane is not completely obsolete, especially against weaker opponents .

Also, China cannot replace all of its J-7s with more modern fighters right away even if it wants to do so. Manufacturing takes time, and during that time it is prudent to keep some number of J-7s active. I'm certain that there is time table for gradual replacement of J-7s in PLAAF which does incorporate plans for retiring existing J-7 personal in dignifying manner , making sure there is no shortage of either planes or pilots for them .
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
A new Brigade ... 76x7x - 611 = 156. Brigade ! :confused::confused::confused: ... any info on where ????

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