Taiwan plans to build 500 cruise missiles

KYli

Brigadier
FuManChu said:
Sorry, how is China's position flexible? It refuses to meet with Chen simply because it doesn't like his position. He would like to talk with Beijing, but the last thing he is going to do is say "ok, yes Taiwan is a part of China". He doesn't believe it, nor does he want it to be.
How do China talk to Chen when he never keep his words? The last thing China want is to say"Taiwan and China are two countries. There are no point now for Chen and China have any sort of talk. China is very flexible because China decide that The Talk between Taiwan and China could be conclude by civilians organization. The government just work behind the scene. So nobody will try to make a fuss about one country or two countries stuff.

Normally in negotiation you talk with whoever is available and ignore the things you can't agree on until you are at least talking. Britain has held talks with Robert Mugabe, with Hamas in Palestine, Iran - and many other nasty regimes. We'd like nothing better than to throw them into a bottomless pit, but given that isn't possible we have been willing to talk to at least see if we can reach some sort of agreement.
I don't know. There are just as many negotiation that have make the condition first before any talk began.
Beijing, on the other hand, insists that Taiwanese politicians agree with its position first. That is not negotiation by any stretch of the imagination. It's about time the old farts on the mainland realised that a change in administration will not hasten unification one jot. They're wasting precious time by sulking just because Chen won't do as they say.
Taiwan, on the other hand, insists that China should admit the Taiwan as a county first. When everyone know it is impossible. If Chen is truely willing to talk, I think there are ways to set away the issue first. There have been many times that the talk are conduct by "middle man". So the pre-condition is not necessary, as long as both sides are truely trying to reach compromise. Chen has play the little game of him for so long, that every one have doubt in him. You just don't have people that one day say they are willing to talk, but the next day they do something that will offence you.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Hmm OK

Taijisheng

Friendly advice, just accept the moderation with good grace, you will not win and it is simply not worth it.

FuManChu

I disagree with your assesment of the respective parties. PRC have tried talking to Chen, have offered incentives to Chen and he rebuffed them. Direct flights at New Year have only happened last two years because they were negotiated through KMT and public supported them. Chen in my opinion is the problem.

Hi KYli

Chen could try to change the constitution, this is a very dangerous move because it might involve changing Taiwan name, sovereignty and flag. There are a lot of talk in the DPP and Pan green that 2008 would be best time to acheive indenpendent, because of the Olympic.

The another thing Chen could do is to hold a referendum of independent

This lies at the heart of my arguement. He can do all these things, but as long as the Opposition and UN/Major Nations do not recognise them, then outside of Chen's office they have not happened. They will have no effect, except make Chen a laughing stock. Nobody is going to upset the global apple cart for Taiwan, China is just too significant to their own prosperity to risk even an interuption.

He can hold a referendum, I think he would be unlikely to win it, but even if he did it could be dismissed as nothing more than an expensive opion poll.

Even with regard to the Reunification Council "ceasing to operate", the KMT could score a easy point if they wished too. Ceasing to operate is intended to signify "not abolished", well fine. The opposition are entitled to maintain a "Shadow Reunification Council" that is under no obligation to cease operating. Such a body funded by Taiwanese businesses on the Mainland, could indeed be very busy over the next two years - perhaps publicaly establishing a framework for discussions relating to a road map to reconciliation maybe. If the Pan Blue have something to offer whilst Pan Green are clearly going nowhere, then public opinion is easy to guess. People who are prepared to sacrifice their well being for an ideal or a notion, are extremists. Extremists are by definition a minority.

Finally understand the political mind, why be just the President of a small and isolated Island, when you can be a senior minister in one of the worlds most powerful nations? What do you think most politicians would choose?

This is the reality I predict for the next two years and I hope you can see why and agree with me.

Sometimes things just conspire to prove my point: jusy found this in Taiwans China Post.

Senator Warner questions U.S. position on Taiwan defense


2006/3/9
The China Post staff with agencies



An influential U.S. senator on Tuesday questioned whether America would defend Taiwan if "wrongful and inappropriate" actions from politicians here spurred a conflict with China.
Republican Sen. John Warner called a decision by President Chen Shui-bian last week to shut down a government body devoted to seeking unification with China "one of those unfortunate incidents that seem to continue to arise."

If a conflict with China was aided by "inappropriate and wrongful politics generated by the Taiwanese elected officials, I am not entirely sure that this nation would come full force to their rescue," Warner said at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing attended by U.S. military officials responsible for Northeast Asia.

Warner is the committee's chairman and one of the leading voices on military issues in Congress. Warner said he supported Taiwan building up its military in the face of growing Chinese military expansion, "but at the same time they've got to learn how to ... tone down their heated politics." China has repeatedly threatened war if Taiwan declares formal independence. The United States is Taiwan's only major ally.

Adm. William Fallon, head of the U.S. Pacific Command, acknowledged at the hearing that America is "trying to walk a thin line" in supporting China's efforts to act as a positive force in the region while also honoring U.S. obligations to defend Taiwan.

He said Chen's decision was "not particularly helpful." But he also noted China's "muted response" to Chen's move _ a change, he said, from Beijing's previous reactions to developments in Taiwan. China, Fallon said, is "taking this more in stride, rather than just reacting."

Generally, Fallon said tensions between China and Taiwan have "significantly reduced" from a year ago.

Chen's move to scrap the National Unification Council (NUC) strained Taipei's ties with Washington.

Chen promised in 2000 and 2004 that he would not abolish the council as part of his "five noes" policy. Washington views the policy as promises from Chen that he will not unilaterally change the status quo in the Taiwan Strait with moves towards independence.

But Taipei's de facto ambassador to the U.S., David Lee, also on Tuesday, downplayed reports of friction.

"Taipei is continuing to communicate with Washington... and a mutual understanding should be achieved very soon," Lee said.

Lee also said Warner told him about these concerns several months earlier, saying U.S. forces were busy with Iraq, Afghanistan and in fighting terror.

"Warner was concerned that if the situation in the Taiwan Strait took a turn for the worse, the U.S. might not have enough military force to enter into a conflict," Lee said.

Taipei is insisting it never "abolished" the council and it only "ceased to function", with no changes to the status quo.

The U.S. State Department last week issued a rare public statement requesting the Taipei authorities to clearly state they never abolished the council, citing reports quoting senior Taiwan officials as saying "abolish" and "cease to function" were the same thing.

Although the media company responsible for the report later clarified that these senior officials never said the two phrases were the same, Lee said the U.S. was still not satisfied. It was continuing to push for Taipei to openly state it never abolished the NUC.

He said Taipei hoped to settle the matter before Chinese President Hu Jintao's state visit to Washington in April.

Lee said the U.S. would not give opposition leader Ma Ying-jeou better treatment than ruling party politicians during Ma's coming Washington visit.

Analysts have speculated that the U.S. might try to show its displeasure with Chen by cold-shouldering his Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) and giving opposition politicians a warm welcome.

"Kuomintang (KMT) chairman Ma Ying-jeou will be given the same treatment ... as that accorded to Premier Su Tseng-chang when he visited the U.S. last July," Lee said. Su at the time was DPP chairman.

Lee said the U.S. side told him it had fixed principles and procedures for handling Ma's visit.
 
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KYli

Brigadier
SampanViking said:
This lies at the heart of my arguement. He can do all these things, but as long as the Opposition and UN/Major Nations do not recognise them, then outside of Chen's office they have not happened. They will have no effect, except make Chen a laughing stock. Nobody is going to upset the global apple cart for Taiwan, China is just too significant to their own prosperity to risk even an interuption.
Well said, but unacceptable for the chinese government. UN or all the major nations will not recognize Taiwan, but if Chen manages to do all these. That will create condition for the chinese government to act or eat their own words. Chen don't need the international to accept Taiwan. Chen only needs a official and formal title of independent.
He can hold a referendum, I think he would be unlikely to win it, but even if he did it could be dismissed as nothing more than an expensive opion poll.
If he hold a referendum and win, China will have no chioce but to attack Taiwan. Otherwise Chinese government will have mounting pressure from chinese, which may even caused the downfall of the CCP.
Even with regard to the Reunification Council "ceasing to operate", the KMT could score a easy point if they wished too. Ceasing to operate is intended to signify "not abolished", well fine. The opposition are entitled to maintain a "Shadow Reunification Council" that is under no obligation to cease operating. Such a body funded by Taiwanese businesses on the Mainland, could indeed be very busy over the next two years - perhaps publicaly establishing a framework for discussions relating to a road map to reconciliation maybe. If the Pan Blue have something to offer whilst Pan Green are clearly going nowhere, then public opinion is easy to guess. People who are prepared to sacrifice their well being for an ideal or a notion, are extremists. Extremists are by definition a minority.
Pan Blue has failed many times to use the opportunity when the situations are in their favor. Pan Blue just don't want to do anything that could label them as traitors. Which make Pan Blue refused to take a strong stance on many issues. It is only when they lost the 2004 election, that the Panblue had no choice but do something risky. That is the main reason behind the visit to China, Pan Blue take the risk to gamble and win. But now Pan Blue are in far better shape than the Pan Green, they might become conservative again.
Finally understand the political mind, why be just the President of a small and isolated Island, when you can be a senior minister in one of the worlds most powerful nations? What do you think most politicians would choose?
Well, most nations will enbrace China, but there are always few will choose to do otherwise. And one of them is the most powerful nation in the world, that is more than enough for Taiwan.
This is the reality I predict for the next two years and I hope you can see why and agree with me.
I see what you mean, and I agree many things you said. But if Chen changed the constitution or hold the referendum, the war might be the only option left for Chinese government. Chinese government did not want the war or they are in any hurry for the unification, but they did draw the red line for Taiwan. If Taiwan cross it, China will have no chioce but to act.
Sometimes things just conspire to prove my point: jusy found this in Taiwans China.
Nice article, but we never know what is US true intention in the matter, either did we know what Taiwan or China stance on the issue. Let just hope, things will work it way out and peace will be everyone interest.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Sampan, the mainland has offered peanuts. Don't muck about with flights and fruit - talk about removing those missiles. That's what the Taiwanese public wants. I'm sure Chen can be extremely unhelpful, but the mainland are still the bullies in my opinion - most Taiwanese agree with that.

KYli said:
The last thing China want is to say "Taiwan and China are two countries."

Tell me where Chen has said that is his precondition for a visit. As far as I know he only wants China to not press the issue during talks. But China says "you must agree with us that Taiwan is a part of China first". He has no such demands, as far as I know. If he has said that China must recognise Taiwan first then please show me.

China is very flexible because China decide that The Talk between Taiwan and China could be conclude by civilians organization. The government just work behind the scene. So nobody will try to make a fuss about one country or two countries stuff.

Except that those people have no authority to agree upon anything. So what's the point? Show me what these talks have achieved of any real meaning to Taiwan. They exclude the democratically elected government so are always going to be highly limited in what they can produce.

There have been many times that the talk are conduct by "middle man". So the pre-condition is not necessary, as long as both sides are truely trying to reach compromise.

Chen has tried that - he reportedly gave a letter to one of the opposition leaders that visited the mainland, to hand to mainland politicians. But China is not interested.

Chen has play the little game of him for so long, that every one have doubt in him.

China has always refused to meet him because of his politics. It has nothing to do with him changing his attitude. That has never stopped China from talking to people before. They try to undermine people they simply don't want to talk to - I'm sure they accuse the Dalai Lama of being sneaky.
 
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KYli

Brigadier
FuManChu said:
Sampan, the mainland has offered peanuts. Don't muck about with flights and fruit - talk about removing those missiles. That's what the Taiwanese public wants. I'm sure Chen can be extremely unhelpful, but the mainland are still the bullies in my opinion - most Taiwanese agree with that.
You could not have one side doing all the work. China already have the intention to talk, and make some minor adjustment. If Chen is willing to talk, he could find a way without involving any political issue. Most Taiwanese might not have a favoritable opinion of China, but they also will put blame on Chen not doing enough to resolve the dilemma.
Tell me where Chen has said that is his precdition for a visit. As far as I know he only wants China to not press the issue during talks. But China says "you must agree with us that Taiwan is a part of China first". He has no such demands, as far as I know. If he has said that China must recognise Taiwan first then please show me.
Chen refused to talk because he felt that the talk might have wrong implication that he had accept the one country idea. Chen had made clear he wanted to have "state to state" dialogue which is unacceptable to China.
You don't need to tell you that you could find it on many of his speech. China might have say that they want Chen to accept the one country system but there are a lot of talks that don't need to involve any government officials. Why Chen didn't allowed these kinds of exchange? Just give you a few examples, the fruits, the little three links, the spring travel and many others which had been quick sucessful without any political agendas involving.

Except that those people have no authority to agree upon anything. So what's the point? Show me what these talks have achieved of any real meaning to Taiwan. They exclude the democratically elected government so are always going to be highly limited in what they can produce.
You are kidding me. Chen is the main obstacle to any concrete talk. If he is serious about talk, he would not do all the crazy things to offense the china. Don't tell me about the democratically BS, this has nothing to do with the negociation. China and Taiwan could both send their representatives, and the representatives could report to each government. It might be complicate, but it is only way to do it without anyone trying to make an agendas about the issues. The talks will be slow, but do you think there are any better way. There could be many real achivement, the three links and tension will be lower.
Chen has tried that - he reportedly gave a letter to one of the opposition leaders that visited the mainland, to hand to mainland politicians. But China is not interested.
Right, he give a letter to China say who, nobody except him is talking about it. Even if he did, what is the point. Why he was mading a big fuss about it. It was an embrassment to that person and to China. Any politcial with a common sense will not show this letter in front of TV. Unless there was an agendas behind Chen action.
China has always refused to meet him because of his politics. It has nothing to do with him changing his attitude. That has never stopped China from talking to people before. They try to undermine people they simply don't want to talk to - I'm sure they accuse the Dalai Lama of being sneaky.
I had said it again and again. Chen had caused so many problems and he could not be trust. Why the Chinese government will be stupid enough to meet with him, and let Chen has the credit or try to make a agendas with it. For now, the only solution is the talk should be lead by representatives, so the mistrust and agendas in both side could be set aside.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
KYli said:
If he hold a referendum and win, China will have no chioce but to attack Taiwan. Otherwise Chinese government will have mounting pressure from chinese, which may even caused the downfall of the CCP.

No, that is an assumption, The PRC leadership doesn't have anyone above them to say "you must invade today". Their "measured response" can range from diplomacy to a shower of ballistic missiles.

The Taiwan conflict exist today because Chang and Mao wanted to duke it out, and it spilled over to Taiwan. The islanders never asked to get involved, we imposed the conflict on them and they're still being screwed because of it.

The PRC has been around for over half a century without Taiwan, and it sure hasn't fallen because of it. If the Chinese leadership would be more accomodating and accept ROC on equal standing (nation-nation), negotiate a peace treaty (with POST-Chen government) - perhaps even a Chinese Commonwealth as equal partners, where people from both sides are free to trade, travel, and immigrate directly, it'd bring the Taiwanese people back into "Chinese family" better than branding them traitors and raining 1,000 missiles on their heads.

Taiwan's birth rate has fallen to the 1.2x per women range. I'd like to see the future immigrant population of Taiwan to come from China, and not Philippines and Indonesia. Just my $0.02.
 

taijisheng

New Member
Gollevainen said:
showing off???

Red text is preserved only for moderation purposes so when You(or anyone else) see it in the 'field' expecially used by moderator, You migth consider that he is beeing moderating something at the moment. This forum has already good examples of what happens when members try to think themselves atop rules and thinking that they can go offtopic when ever they want and ignore moderators actions. Going offtopic isent a sin that migth earn your a warning in this forum, but ignoring moderators counsel and continue ass-rubbing after it will earn you a warning. So consider yourself warned. Now do this one more time and You get banned for good.

If you have proplems whit our moderation policy or rules, contact Webmaster or Dongfeng, not me, Im not intresed in whining over so simple matter like rules.

Wow , I am warned, and will be banned for good !!!!!!
LOL, go ahead, for me, it only worth a delete from my bookmark, big deal, omg i am running out of websites I can go , omg ... lmao.
 

SampanViking

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Hello FuManChu

Well I think KYli pretty sums up my answer to you from last night. To summarise with an aliteration quickly, the talk of this sort are very like a young couple starting to date. We all know what the guy is after, but on the first date a held hand and a quick peck at the doorstep (fruits and flights) will have to to suffice. Your suggestion about diving straighe into missiles is a real slap in the face and Chow Mein all over your head territory.

Hi KYli

I see what you mean, and I agree many things you said. But if Chen changed the constitution or hold the referendum, the war might be the only option left for Chinese government. Chinese government did not want the war or they are in any hurry for the unification, but they did draw the red line for Taiwan. If Taiwan cross it, China will have no chioce but to act.

Now I understand your difference of opinion. Lets just say I have detected in Hu and Wen a far greater degree of Pragmatism in the Chinese leadership than there was even a few years ago. Likewise the KMT and Pan Blue Allies seem a lot more switched on.

In part I see this as a generational change as on both sides of the straits we are seeing old ideologues being replaced by a younger more executive minded generation.

Secondly, I think both sides genuinely believes that a worthwhile deal is deliverable (Probably also International Community hence last nights attached article)

The only exception to all of these factors is of course ... Mr Chen.

I have probably taken this topic as far as I can for the time being, we at least now understand each others position and we will be able to pick this up again as the situation unfolds.

Untill then, I look forward to seeing you in Chinese Economy Today.;)
 

Gollevainen

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Wow , I am warned, and will be banned for good !!!!!!
LOL, go ahead, for me, it only worth a delete from my bookmark, big deal, omg i am running out of websites I can go , omg ... lmao.

banning you will be a sad thing...You have been good member to us for long period of now and now this? So weird thing gets you ranting over minor every day moderating activity...I mean did ever properly reconsider what you were doing....It almoust seems like you wish to leave us and therefore choosed a silly, but yet effective way of doing it...It would have saved us from lot of trouple if you would have simply PM me and asked you to be banned or your account to be terminated...but guess there is a bit of dramaqueen in all of us:D

But in the end We dont need members whit your attitude, we never did and we will not need it in future.
And as the protocol says i now issue you a second warning and Ban you for week and during that You can reconsider wheter you wish to continue in here but If do choose to return, For God sake do not come only for ranting like silly little boy
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
SampanViking said:
To summarise with an aliteration quickly, the talk of this sort are very like a young couple starting to date. We all know what the guy is after, but on the first date a held hand and a quick peck at the doorstep (fruits and flights) will have to to suffice. Your suggestion about diving straighe into missiles is a real slap in the face and Chow Mein all over your head territory.

!?! Asking missiles to be not pointed at you is akin to asking for sex?! Sampan, I think that is not an apt analogy! If it is like anything, it is like a girl asking her boyfriend not to beat and rape her if she decides to leave him. She should not have to ask in the first place, because any gentleman would accept it if he loved her. Only selfish, macho thugs would threaten violence if she made her own decision.
 
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