Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I was actually thinking about China's increasingly capable air force. In a war situation the ROCN ships will face wave after wave of attacks from J-10's and J-11's armed with anti-ship missile's. And now the even more capable J-10B and J-16 are coming online as well. The ROCN ships in my view don't have enough air defence capabilities to handle such a saturation attack from the PLAAF and the PLANAF. And those attacks from planes will be combined with attacks from other PLAN ships like the Type 054A and Type 052C/D etc. And yes they will also be attacked by subs as well. The Taiwan Straits is only 140km wide and that's within range from both sides air defence and coastal defence assets. This means that ships and planes from both sides can be hit from land based assets not just sea and air. I think China's ballistic missile attacks will be aimed at land targets not the ships. And no doubt it will be aimed at those air defence and coastal defence assets.

J-10s and J-11s will have no role in anti shipping missions, that will fall to JH-7/As, MKK/MK2s, and yes J-16 when it arrives.

We are veering dangerously into speculative territory if we talk about how a war may play out. But I think without a doubt we can agree that ROCN ships operating in the strait will not be very survivable under most scenarios, due to the prevalence of PLA strike fighters and PLAN submarines, let alone the sheer quantitative advantage of PLAN ships. ROCN ships will have some utility on a taiwan's eastern side, defending it against any PLAN submarines or ships, and more importantly it will survive longer given they won't have to face the brunt of PLA air power. However the chances of the PLAN deploying a significant chunk of its orbat on the eastern side is slim. The PLA really have the freedom to dictate the location of the engagement but deploying its vastly quantitatively superior assets, forcing the ROC military to deploy a counter force in that same location lest they simply give up on defending a location.

If PLA decides to attack only the western side, then the ROC will inevitably have to move ships to the west to defend it, which would play into the advantages of PLA air power.

Long story short, I agree that the ROCN's biggest priority should be SSKs, given that is the PLANs biggest weakness at present. But the question is whether ROC investment into SSKs will give them any kind of significant advantage, say in ten years time once such a project bears fruit, versus an equally (probably better funded and developed) PLAN ASW force. At the present it simply seems like the least worst choice.

However that doesn't preclude ROC needing some surface ships and a token Air Force to have a more conventional symmetric force to at least contest the air and sea control against the PLA, as well as pursuing ROC interests against non PRC states.

PS: PLA ballistic missiles will be aimed at ships in harbour as well land and coastal targets, you can be quite sure.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
To be fair, I don't think it would make much difference what ships Taiwan gets when it comes to the straits. Even a couple of Ford class carrier battlegroups will die if they are foolish enough to try and hold the line there.

The only assets that might have any chance in the straits that isn't PLAN would be subs, which is why Taiwan is so desperate to get some.

The Perry class would be for the SCS and, in the event of conflict with China, their main job would be to operate East of Taiwan and try and keep Taiwan's sea based supply lines open as long as possible.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Are Philippines,Vietnam and Japan main opponents of Taiwan now ? ;) Does Taiwan needs 10+ frigates to deter Vietnam ? How likely is Japan vs Taiwan war with other parties staying neutral ? Let's not delude ourselves - primary opponent of Taiwan is China .Perry-class is unsuited to fight such opponent, especially since USN removed even Mk13 launchers and Harpoons from their ships (Taiwan would have to pay to retrofit them or their own missiles ) .

Buying large number of frigates is a product of inertia and denial of reality - Taiwanese planers are still stuck in 70's and 80's with weak PLAN they could hope to meet in open seas. I won't exclude corruption and bribes as a motive either, but since we have no definite proof I won't discuss it further.

Once again, you refute by line items, not the sum. I hardly think it's deluding when planning a navy in the context of the big picture. No procurment is planned with just a single scenario in mind. :eek:

Buying two is hardly a large number. And if Knoxes are going to be retired, it's not any expansion. You're arguing that a large number of frigates is a product of inertia and denial of reality yet in an earlier post, you are open to procuring Álvaro de Bazán-class frigates? Does that mean you wanted one AdB frigate procured? :confused:

That's a price tag of over $1 billion a vessel compared to ~$185 million for two hulls plus whatever costs for weapons and equipment. Besides, the US is not willing to sell certain items like Aegis so its not like Taiwan specifically singled out the Perrys over something more modern with Aegis. And you haven't identified what other country is willing to see more modern frigates or destroyers to Taiwan. Furthermore, it's already been mentioned 12 missile corvettes are being built so it's not like Taiwan's overlooked your point on smaller craft. Reducing one's navy to just a large coastal force is an even worse decision.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
To be fair, I don't think it would make much difference what ships Taiwan gets when it comes to the straits. Even a couple of Ford class carrier battlegroups will die if they are foolish enough to try and hold the line there.

Well, I think that depends on how preceding actions unfold :p. If a few CSGs just sail in the strait without doing anything prior before hostilities start, then they'd have a hard time surviving. If it is a full scale war and they do preceding air strikes and cruise missile attacks with integrated air ops vs the PLA A2AD system before the CSGs reach the strait, then it will be a much more interesting ball game.

The only assets that might have any chance in the straits that isn't PLAN would be subs, which is why Taiwan is so desperate to get some.

The Perry class would be for the SCS and, in the event of conflict with China, their main job would be to operate East of Taiwan and try and keep Taiwan's sea based supply lines open as long as possible.

The Kidds would be useful for that as well. A force of Kidds and Perries (Perrys?) vs a force of 052C/Ds and 054As operating in open waters East of taiwan without meaningful air support for either side would be quite an even battle.
Of course, once all 12 052Ds are commissioned and once 055s start getting produced, the kind of force the PLAN can put out into the waters east of Taiwan will probably be more than a match for the force the ROCN can spare to put out there by 2020+
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
To be fair, I don't think it would make much difference what ships Taiwan gets when it comes to the straits. Even a couple of Ford class carrier battlegroups will die if they are foolish enough to try and hold the line there.
You are correct, they would not be able to go there.

In a shooting conflict, the US would never send its CSGs in there. They would hang off 2-3 hundred miles east of the Island and work from there.

Even if they were successful in gaining air superiority over the straits and suppressing air strikes there, they would not sail into those confined waters.

They only did so numerous years ago because it was peace time and to send a message...not at all meant as an actual challenge to combat at the time.

plawolf said:
The only assets that might have any chance in the straits that isn't PLAN would be subs, which is why Taiwan is so desperate to get some.

The Perry class would be for the SCS and, in the event of conflict with China, their main job would be to operate East of Taiwan and try and keep Taiwan's sea based supply lines open as long as possible.
I agree with this.

As it is, we'd best stop with the details of conflict between the ROCN and the PLAN. It will only lead to heated discussions, anger, and result in problems.

Sorry for any part I had in helping the conversation go there.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You are correct, they would not be able to go there.

In a shooting conflict, the US would never send its CSGs in there. They would hang off 2-3 hundred miles east of the Island and work from there.

Even if they were successful in gaining air superiority over the straits and suppressing air strikes there, they would not sail into those confined waters.

They only did so numerous years ago because it was peace time and to send a message...not at all meant as an actual challenge to combat at the time.

I think plawolf was more saying that it would be difficult for a few CSGs to survive in the strait today so by association it would be nigh impossible for any ROCN forces to do so either. I don't think the USN would ever try to get as close to the strait as they did during the 3rd strait crisis, either in peacetime or wartime. That strait during wartime will be one of the biggest kill boxes ever.

But it would be interesting as a hypothetical scenario, to wonder how long a few CSGs could survive there.
 

delft

Brigadier
I just went through several pages on thread, delayed reading after my hospital time, and I found most of it unrealistic. The time for war between ROC and PRC is passed. Period. ROCN will not be able to stand up to USN, Japan or SK. So there remains the countries around SCS of which only Philippines is a current but small threat.
As for the promise of US help building SSK's, that promise has been given many times these last fifteen years or so without anything ever happening. And no other country will help. The late Dutch shipyard RDM sold the two newest ROCN boats in the 80's and The Netherlands were immediately treated in such a way that that the repeat order was not accepted. ( How much stronger is China now economically compared with a quarter of a century ago? )
 

Franklin

Captain
Taiwan only plans to buy 2 out of the 4 OHP FFG's being offered. And this analyst gives reasons why he thinks that the OHP FFG's will not be a good choice for Taiwan.

To Buy or Not to Buy? A Dilemma for Taiwan’s Navy

Taiwan’s Navy is considering the purchase of Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates. Does it really need them?

As reported by The Diplomat last week, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a bill authorizing the sale of four decommissioned U.S. Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates under an excess defense article (EDA) reallocation program. Although the expected decision was hailed in some corners as a sign of healthy U.S.-Taiwan relations, the sale of — let’s be honest here — mothballed military equipment makes little sense from a military and economic standpoint. In fact, no sooner had the announcement been made than Taipei, which faces serious budgetary constraints, said it was only interested in acquiring two. This is probably the right decision. A better one yet would be to not buy a single one.

Plans to pass on the USS Taylor, USS Gary, USS Carr, and USS Elrod to the Taiwan Navy go back a few years. Although the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs agreed to introduce legislation that would authorize the sale of all four frigates in November 2013, Taipei had already decided in late 2011 that it would only seek to acquire two platforms. Reports at the time cited cost and technical considerations, as well as the need for the Taiwanese military to repay nearly US$18 billion in arms purchases from the U.S. since 2008.

Cost indeed matters, especially when it has become clear that Taiwan cannot afford to engage in a ton-for-ton arms race with the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). If the sale proceeds as planned, with plans for delivery in 2015, the two decommissioned frigates, which are to be stripped of all weapons and electronics, will cost Taiwan approximately NT$5.6 billion (US$185 million). To put things in perspective, the acquisition of the two empty hulls, which entered service in 1984-85, will cost Taiwan about 1/57th of its entire annual defense budget, and that does not include the millions more that will be necessary to outfit the vessels with electronics, warfare suites, and weapons systems (presumably Hsiung Feng II and III anti-ship missiles, among others).

Moreover, though the two frigates are intended to replace two even older Knox-class frigates that are still in service in the Taiwan navy, it makes little sense for the navy to procure large-displacement vessels that would be almost immediately wiped out by Chinese ballistic and/or cruise missiles during the opening phase of a large-scale attack against Taiwan (the same argument has often been made with regards to the multi-billion-dollar purchases of advanced combat aircraft, given the vulnerability of airstrips to missile attacks).

If Taiwan didn’t face the threat of 1,600 ballistic missiles from China’s Second Artillery Corps plus sea- and air-launched attacks, the procurement of heavy-tonnage vessels would perhaps make sense, but even then, the island’s geographical characteristics and near-sea defense requirements could be used to make a case against such an investment. Instead of spending precious capital on large sea platforms, Taiwan would be better served by procuring — or even better, developing — a smaller, faster, stealthier, and more dispersible force. For the amount it will pay for the two retired 3,600-tonne hulls from the U.S., the Taiwanese Navy could procure as many as 14 fully armed 170-tonne Kuang Hua VI fast-attack boats, or several smaller surface combatants in the 500-tonne category, including the “carrier killer” being developed under the Hsun Hai, or “Swift Sea” program.

Although small size and dispersibility cannot fully ensure survivability against missile attacks by the PLA, there is a chance that a sufficient number of small surface combatants would survive an initial onslaught to fight another day, something that cannot be said of the 18 3,800-tonne-plus warships that currently form the core of Taiwan’s Navy (four Kidd-class destroyers, eight Perry-class frigates and six La Fayette-class frigates).

Of course, U.S. arms sales to Taiwan are never solely about their defense value. The political signaling that accompanies arms deals with the island is always a factor in Washington and Taipei’s calculations. But in the present case, the transfer of two (or perhaps four) mothballed hulls hardly signals a continued commitment of the U.S. government to ensuring that Taiwan retains the ability to defend itself. It should furthermore be regarded in the context of a U.S. administration that has not signed a single notification to Congress on arms sales to Taiwan since September 2011, the longest period of inactivity since 1990. The sale may be symbolic, but the symbol itself has little bite and is hardly sufficient to reaffirm U.S. support for a strong Taiwanese military. If Taiwan is to throw money at mostly symbolic acquisitions, it could do a lot better.

Interestingly, as The Diplomat reported a few days ago, Taiwan’s Minister of National Defense Yen Ming surprised everybody when he seemed to confirm to the Legislative Yuan on April 14 that the U.S. had agreed to assist Taiwan with the domestic development of diesel-electric submarines. After 10 years of failed efforts to procure diesel-electric submarines from the U.S., Taiwan’s military all but announced in early 2011 that it had given up on Washington and would launch an indigenous program, possibly with the assistance of other countries. (The U.S. stopped producing diesel-electric submarines in the 1950s, which has forced the U.S. Navy to rent those from other countries for exercises simulating the use of such forces by an adversary.)

Neither the Pentagon nor Taiwan’s Ministry of National Defense has confirmed, let alone provided details about, the assistance mentioned by Minister Yen. A decision by Washington to help Taiwan’s Navy develop a shallow-water conventional submarine would constitute a major shift in policy, possibly reflecting a reassessment of Taiwan’s military value amid rising fears of Chinese expansionism.

Instead of wasting precious defense budgets on rather useless and highly vulnerable surface combatants, Taiwan’s military should focus on smaller items that will make the PLA’s life difficult. Submarines, though highly expensive, are a good start, as are smaller, swift warships, dispersal, and the hardening of harbors and other military infrastructure. Part of that strategy involves Taipei being able to say no to some of the defense articles that Washington throws at it.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
As for the promise of US help building SSK's, that promise has been given many times these last fifteen years or so without anything ever happening. And no other country will help. The late Dutch shipyard RDM sold the two newest ROCN boats in the 80's and The Netherlands were immediately treated in such a way that that the repeat order was not accepted. ( How much stronger is China now economically compared with a quarter of a century ago? )

Since Japan had renounced her military equipment export self embargo, Taiwan can always make request towards Japan. It isn't a complete impossibility since Australia is also making a request to obtain the Soryu class SSK with promising response.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Since Japan had renounced her military equipment export self embargo, Taiwan can always make request towards Japan. It isn't a complete impossibility since Australia is also making a request to obtain the Soryu class SSK with promising response.

That's assuming Taipei can pay for it. Not to mention the implications for Cross Straits relations.
 
Top