Submarines for the Argentine Navy

Miragedriver said:

I agree that the only way to proceed is to have a partner that will purchase and help co-produce the vessel. The only partner that comes to mind would be Brazil. However, they have already decided to embark on the naval building program of their own. Brazil has also partnered up with South Africa on pruduction of air to air missiles and other electronic components.
Maybe Mexico and/or Colombia are interested?
Could you explain what South Korea did? Is it regarding the Type 214 Submarines?

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Mexico would most likely not participate, why? well our government is not a militaristic one, in 2011, Mexico is interested in bring aerospace companies into Mexico to build design or outsource, in terms of Naval development we are behind Argentina, however it could be possible that if Argentina proposed a Submarine some people in the Armada (navy) could get interested, but i doubt it.

Colombia perhaps, i think Brazil is the ideal partner and perhaps Chile, however if you would need a more reliable partner you would need a non Latin American Partner, like South Korea or South Africa.

Miragedriver said:

Argentina did design, develop and produce the Pucara (IA-58) and the Pampa (IA-63). The second had assistance from Dornier in the design of the airfoil. The Pucara was exported to Uruguay and Sira Lanka. The pucara continues to serve in Uruguay however its service in Sira Lanka was tarnished due to lack of steady supply of spare parts in a timely fashion.
The IA-63 competed in a USA Air Force tender as a trainer, and scored high points, but was ultimately not chosen.
The indigenous helicopter Cicare is a very small scout and liaison vehicle that may enjoy a limited success in Latin America or Africa.
The assault jeep “Gaucho” has been co-developed with Brazil and is entering service in both nations.
I do agree with you that the technology or the trainer engineers and technicians are not what are lacking; it is the stead supply of money that would allow a particular industry to grow and flourish. This happened for a couple of decades at Fabricaciones Militares in Cordoba and resulted in the Pucara and Pampa.
What is needed is a government that will open the national purse and not line their own pockets. Being from Latin American you can understand our dilemma. I believe that we can most assuredly say that any nation that does not produce and independently support its own equipment will be at the mercy of others for its defense.

Back to the subject of submarines. The construction of submarines from supplied plans is one thing, but to design and construct you own fleet of submarines requires that a production line remain open for several years (10 or more). That would require foreign sales in addition to your own domestic requirement. Shipbuilding is also an art. The technicians and welders are very specialized and need to be constantly working in order to stay current on techniques and to have money to feed their families. If not they will leave the country. As did Argentine shipbuilders when they left to Brazil.

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I agree in all of that, but i think as a latin american, the problem is not the technologies but the lack of a policy that makes profitable the technology.

I will say that both Mexico and Argentina have failed in develop an efficient aerospace industry not by lack of technology but lack of financial sucess, in today`s mexico, the Government has taken a policy in which they do not invest a penny in research and development, in fact what they are doing is let foreign companies to do the research in Mexico and the building of an aerospace industry, this ins relatively good since we are now developing jet engines for General Electric and ITP, plus Goodrich has design laboratories in Mexico, Mexican technicians are getting used to work with high advanced composites.
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An item of $ 20 million in direct investment captured the state of Queretaro, Mexico with the opening of a new advanced engineering with General Electric that the company intends to develop aircraft turbines and power generation, reported national daily El universal

Una partida de 20 millones de dólares como inversión directa captó el estado de Querétaro, México con la inauguración de un nuevo centro de ingeniería avanzada con el que la compañía General Electric pretende desarrollar turbinas de avión y de generación de energía, informó el diario nacional El Universal.









Frisa Monterrey The company, which produces turbine structures, the project will provide parts for Japanese aircraft.

Monterrey won industry and, as a supplier, a Japanese aerospace ambitious project to manufacture a new aircraft model, the Mitsubishi Regional Jet, known as MRJ and will be released in 2013, said Herminio Blanco Mendoza.

Bilateral Committee vice-president of Businessmen of the Japan-Mexico Mexican Foreign Trade Council (COMCE) said that a meeting to be held tomorrow in Tokyo national delegation will trigger new business.

The event was attended by President Felipe Calderon, 54 Japanese and 200 Mexican businessmen


In Shipbuilding we are just building a few ships and the reality we have no submarines, but in reality we do not need them the US Navy does all that job for us while Mexico helps the US by building parts for several american programs at cheaper prices.

The reality is we could possibly build a domestic engine in 10-20 years in fact is probable we can build one now but our Goverment considers we should first learn from economically successful programs and much later perhaps do one by our own, we currently are designing parts for the Mitsubishi regional jet and delivering parts to Bombardier but mostly like providers.[video=youtube;juF15UgLJiU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juF15UgLJiU[/video]

The main reason that Argentina needs a larger submarine force is for strategic deterrence, sea control, maritime supremacy, and protection of the southern provinces and the Antarctic as part of a national military strategy.
Coastal Defense: Operating in littoral areas, the submarine provides an important element of coastal defense. Diesel-electric submarines are ideally suited for this short-ranged mission. Even relatively unsophisticated submarines can hold naval forces at risk while posing a difficult challenge for ASW forces.
Sea Denial: A submarine can covertly conduct surveillance, mining, and attack in busy shipping channels or maritime choke points.
Power Projection: As a self-sufficient platform able to operate stealthily in forward areas, a submarine can project military power ashore by covertly landing special operations forces or by attacking key targets with cruise missiles armed with a variety of munitions.
Strategic Deterrence: An ideal platform for carrying cruise missiles, the diesel-electric submarine's inherent stealth makes it hard to find and neutralize. A country with such a submarine force possesses a formidable strategic deterrent.

Argentina`s submarine repairs[video=youtube;biWwzM6gMMA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biWwzM6gMMA&feature=related[/video][video=youtube;PXZjFO86aXI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXZjFO86aXI&feature=related[/video][video=youtube;Ccx-4m4B0_I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccx-4m4B0_I&feature=related[/video]

Thank you very much for those informative videos. Argentina has always meticulously maintained all its military equipment. Just look at the museum vintage Mirages that comprise the bulk of the Air Force.
There are many very good engineers and scientist in Argentina that are just waiting for the opportunity to get back to work and produce quality equipment for domestic and foreign use.

Miragedriver said:

Thank you very much for those informative videos. Argentina has always meticulously maintained all its military equipment. Just look at the museum vintage Mirages that comprise the bulk of the Air Force.
There are many very good engineers and scientist in Argentina that are just waiting for the opportunity to get back to work and produce quality equipment for domestic and foreign use.

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Well everywhere there are scientists, our problem in Latin america is we are not making money of them, with the exception of Embraer, and other few companies we hardly make money of our own technology.

The only way that Latin American countries will become truly independent and be masters of their destinies is by developing and producing their own military equipment. Until then they are at the mercy and influenced by the nations that supply their hardware.
Unfortunately, for many of the reasons you explained in prior postings, I do not see us (Latin America) doing this on a grand scale. There will be some equipment manufactured, but it will never compete with European, American or Chinese equipment.

Miragedriver said:

The only way that Latin American countries will become truly independent and be masters of their destinies is by developing and producing their own military equipment. Until then they are at the mercy and influenced by the nations that supply their hardware.
Unfortunately, for many of the reasons you explained in prior postings, I do not see us (Latin America) doing this on a grand scale. There will be some equipment manufactured, but it will never compete with European, American or Chinese equipment.

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I disagree Miragedrive, in latinamerica we have the talent and the capability to design anything we want, i will leave you this two links about the aircraft design we are carrying out in Mexico, we already are designing things for Honeywell and GE.

What happens is in LatinAmerica we are very similar, in fact we can call us the same country just politically fragmented, once UNASUR develops a common market we are going to have a more common identity.

So in reality there is not a arms race between us, in Mexico we do not have any animososity against any latin american nation, yes there are fools who argue what latin american nation is the best, you can see it in youtube, but to be honest, those fools are not smart, we are so close because we came from Spain despite we have now multiracial and multicultural diversity, we can call us the children of Portugal and Spain, and all we are siblings of the same Iberian nation.

I think we are simply nations that do not have real enemies and we can in certain way be relax, Brazil only wants to have the minimun of capability to remain independent, but i am sure there is talent in Latin america.
This is a EMB-145 made in Brazil for the Indian air force, this shows in South America you can develop things as good as anything American, European, Russian or Chinese.
[video=youtube;qwMhA3NDsF4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwMhA3NDsF4&feature=player_embedded[/video]



Por su parte el representante de Honeywell dijo que su empresa tiene un lugar importante en la industria gracias al talento mexicano, no seríamos nada sin esta fuerza laboral. Comentó que Honeywell tiene más de 122 mil empleados en todo el mundo, existen dos plantas de automatización en Tijuana y 7, 500 empleados en B.C. Explicó que Honeywell trabaja con frenos de aeronaves y se trabaja con bombardiers, aviones de carga y ejecutivos. Cárdenas dijo “Contamos con 15 diseñadores en Mexicali , ellos se encargan de práticamente todo el ciclo de producción.” Honeywell ocupa un lugar clave dentro de la defensa aeroespacial y prácticamente todas las partes son diseñadas en Mexicali, la empresa ha ganado concursos en diseño de aeronaves con Honeywell Los Angeles, constatando así que definitivamente los bajacalifornianos tienen talento. Cárdenas comentó: “Tenemos disponibles 40 plazas y es muy interesante ir a las universidades y encontrar mucho talento entre los estudiantes.” Dijo que el 350 de Honeywell le va a dar competencia a el Airbus, que es el que vuela de Japón a Tijuana. Mexicali diseñará practicamente todo el sistema eléctrico, diseño de cabina y filtro de contaminantes del 350. Honeywell tiene vinculación con el CETYS y con la UABC y México se ha posicionado como un centro aeroespacial de clase mundial.

For his part, Honeywell representative said his company has an important place in the industry thanks to the Mexican talent, we would be nothing without this workforce. He said Honeywell has more than 122 000 employees around the world, there are two levels of automation in Tijuana and 7 500 employees in BC He explained that Honeywell is working with aircraft brakes and works with Bombardiers, cargo planes and executives. Cardenas said, "We have 15 designers in Mexicali, they are responsible for pratically the entire production cycle." Honeywell has a key role in the defense aerospace and virtually all parts are designed in Mexicali, the company has won design contests Honeywell aircraft Los Angeles, noting the Baja California so I definitely have talent. Cardenas said: "We have 40 places available and it is very interesting to go to university and find a lot of talent among students." He said that Honeywell will give the to Airbus A-350 competitiveness, which is flying from Japan to Tijuana. Mexicali design almost the entire electrical system, cabin design and filter pollutants for the A-350. Honeywell has links with the CETYS and the UABC and Mexico has positioned itself as a world-class aerospace center.

Tijuana Innovadora 2012


RJGE Inc. designed the HVAC and Plumbing systems for this facility since its inception. The purpose of the Honeywell MRTC A350 building is to test a variety of jet engines to be used in various commercial and military aircraft

Sorry if I wasn’t clear in my last statement mig-29. I was not insinuating that there is a fragmented animosity between latin american nations (ok with the exception of Chile, lol). I do agree that we are slowly becoming a united trade zone similar to the european union. And yes we do have very capable people that can design and construct very capable hardware.
The main stubeling block is the lack of support from the individual governement to have a conhisive and consistant equipment acquisition strategy. Addionally if that hurdl could be overcome then a consortium between nation could produce some true competitive equiment for domestic and international use. However, if we can not get or own nations to invest in our domestic capibilities, how can we ever work to together for the common good?
I would truly love to see a united Latin America (eonomicaly and defense).

Miragedriver said:

Sorry if I wasn’t clear in my last statement mig-29. I was not insinuating that there is a fragmented animosity between latin american nations (ok with the exception of Chile, lol). I do agree that we are slowly becoming a united trade zone similar to the european union. And yes we do have very capable people that can design and construct very capable hardware.
The main stubeling block is the lack of support from the individual governement to have a conhisive and consistant equipment acquisition strategy. Addionally if that hurdl could be overcome then a consortium between nation could produce some true competitive equiment for domestic and international use. However, if we can not get or own nations to invest in our domestic capibilities, how can we ever work to together for the common good?
I would truly love to see a united Latin America (eonomicaly and defense).

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I do understand you, i can consider what you mean specially now that Argentina is building a nuclear submarine, in Latin America our governments are very corrupt and up to a degree not militaristic, imagine that in the 1980s, Israel offered to Mexico a Kfir manufacturing line in 1980, however our government rejected the offer.
In the early 2000s, Russia offered the Mi-8 license to Mexico to make Mi-17s in Mexico, the government rejected that offer.

i mean would had the government accepted today we would probably building Kfirs for South America, however our politicians considered they did not want to barter with Israel, because the deal was the Kfir line in exchange of oil, the mexican government decided to buy F-5s and simply get the cash for the oil we sold to Israel

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With the Mi-8 was the same.

Antonov also offered the manufacture of An-32s in Mexico, but our government also rejected the offer, the reason was they do not want to invest monies, they are happy letting GE or Honeywell do the research in Mexico, giving jobs to mexican engineers and investment and saving in research centers.


But i think in the case of Argentina and Brazil is different, you really want to build your own designs, but i think Argentina should do like Mexico and Brazil get more companies investing in Argentina like we do in Mexico, Today Bombardier, Beechcraft, Gulfstream, MD helicopters, GE, Honeywell, ITP are doing manufaturing and research in mexico but we lack real heavy weights like Brazil has in Embraer or you did with FAMA.

South America should do similar to brazil and cooperate more i think C-390 is a good example.

In future years perhaps a common aircraft carrier or nuclear sub could appear but i understand in latin american our governments sometimes are not really doing enough research as other nations do.