Submarines for the Argentine Navy

@Miragedriver

I always believe the best thing for a country is to own its own peice of defence technology.
even if it will cost you more upfront.
you don't have to own the whole thing but you can own a peice of key technology.

do as PAF did. work with a contractor that is willing to work with you.

in this instances, go to china, europe, or canada, and contract a marine firm to design and built your own Nuclear-AIP electric sub like I have described in my previous post.

all the technology is there in peices, you just need patience to put it together.

you can start by ask for ToT and get a domestic yard to assemble your own diesel version first, then as the nuclear-AIP is in place, it would be based on a proven boat design.
who knows may be brazil would even partner up with you. and you will reap the benefits (industrial, defense) ab selling this technology to other smaller needy countries.

i.e. said:

@Miragedriver

I always believe the best thing for a country is to own its own peice of defence technology.
even if it will cost you more upfront.
you don't have to own the whole thing but you can own a peice of key technology.

do as PAF did. work with a contractor that is willing to work with you.

in this instances, go to china, europe, or canada, and contract a marine firm to design and built your own Nuclear-AIP electric sub like I have described in my previous post.

all the technology is there in peices, you just need patience to put it together.

you can start by ask for ToT and get a domestic yard to assemble your own diesel version first, then as the nuclear-AIP is in place, it would be based on a proven boat design.
who knows may be brazil would even partner up with you. and you will reap the benefits (industrial, defense) ab selling this technology to other smaller needy countries.

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Thank you for that very insightful response! It is true that a nation that cannot build and maintain its own equipment is subject to the whims of the providing foreign states.
I do not know for sure if the TR-1700 that were purchased in the mid 1980’s had a production agreement. I know that they tried to sell two of the submarines being built in the Domecq Garcia shipyards to Taiwan. I also remember seeing an article in the “La Nacion” newspaper regarding the possible resuming of the four submarines. I’ll have to do some research.
There was a plan to convert the 70% constructed ARA Santa Fe S-43 with a nuclear propulsion system, utilizing the reactor. However, I feel that this is a bad idea.

As you mentioned above, I suspectthat the TR-1700 are not 100% produced in the country. The engines batteries and fire control system is fabricated in Germany.

Lion said:

Nuclear sub is out of question for Argentina Navy(budget problem and countries like US, Russia, French and Chinese are not allow to transfer nuclear sub technology to other countries).

Electric -diesel Sub is the only solution.

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that is uncorrect, Argentina can develop nuclear reactors by its own, in fact Karem is exported to nations like Australia



Argentina anunció estar fabricando un submarino nuclear.

Arturo Puricelli, el ministro de Defensa argentino, dijo que el proyecto fue solicitado por la presidenta Cristina Kirchner y dijo que su presidencia será “recordada por la historia como el comienzo de un gran tiempo para Argentina”.

Indicó que un submarino que ya se encontraba en construcción será el primero en entrar en operaciones con combustible nuclear y sugirió que podría ser seguido por otros.




Argentina is already building a nuclear submarine

Miragedriver said:

Thank you for that very insightful response! It is true that a nation that cannot build and maintain its own equipment is subject to the whims of the providing foreign states.
I do not know for sure if the TR-1700 that were purchased in the mid 1980’s had a production agreement. I know that they tried to sell two of the submarines being built in the Domecq Garcia shipyards to Taiwan. I also remember seeing an article in the “La Nacion” newspaper regarding the possible resuming of the four submarines. I’ll have to do some research.
There was a plan to convert the 70% constructed ARA Santa Fe S-43 with a nuclear propulsion system, utilizing the

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reactor. However, I feel that this is a bad idea.

As you mentioned above, I suspectthat the TR-1700 are not 100% produced in the country. The engines batteries and fire control system is fabricated in Germany.

Click to expand...

El jefe de la cartera castrense enfatizó que la Argentina "tiene la capacidad para desarrollar propulsión nuclear para impulsar submarinos". "Esto nos lleva a que el submarino ARA Santa Fe, que ha estado esperando durante muchos años, cuando esté listo no salga con la propulsión original, sino con propulsión nuclear desarrollada en la Argentina", añadió Puricelli, según informó el Ministerio de Defensa a través de un comunicado

El ministro Puricelli resaltó los avances en materia de ciencia y tecnología para la Defensa: "Entre otras cosas se está terminando con la primera reparación de media vida del submarino ARA San Juan en el país, luego de haberlo tenido mucho tiempo inútil y sin funcionamiento", recalcó.

El plan "Submarino de Propulsión Nuclear con Armamento Convencional", comenzó a tomar forma a mediados del año pasado, luego de que Nilda Garré, en ese entonces titular de Defensa, anunciase con bombos y platillos que ese ministerio estaba trabajando en la posibilidad de desarrollar un reactor nuclear para la propulsión de submarinos.

La INVAP (tecnología espacial y nuclear) y la Comisión Nacional de Energía Atómica (CNEA) ya dieron los últimos trazos al reactor CAREM para adaptarlo al prototipo del futuro submarino, cuyo casco será un modelo TR -uno de los tres submarinos que fueron comprados por el país a la alemana Thyssen en los 80-. Actualmente "en gradas" en el astillero Domecq García de la Costanera Sur, el Santa Fe está en proceso de armado en un 75%, después de dormir, desamblado, en varias decenas de contenedores durante dos décadas. Se calcula que estará listo como "plataforma" convencional para 2015: de allí en más se trabajaría en la colocación del reactor nuclear.


they want to develop those submarines into nuclear ones using the carem nuclear reactor,.

Saludos

¡Gracias por los datos! ¿Sé ira lograr la construcción y mantenimiento de un submarino nuclear?
¿No seria mejor invertir ese dinero en tres o cuatro submarino convencionales? Eso es terminar los cuatro submarinos TR-1700 en los Astillero Domecq Garcia.

Miragedriver said:

¡Gracias por los datos! ¿Sé ira lograr la construcción y mantenimiento de un submarino nuclear?
¿No seria mejor invertir ese dinero en tres o cuatro submarino convencionales? Eso es terminar los cuatro submarinos TR-1700 en los Astillero Domecq Garcia.

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creo que deberiamos escribir en ingles, pero bueno solo un poco de castellano.

I think it is better for Argentina to build the nuclear reactor because Brazil already will build its own nuclear reactor and nuclear Submarine, but i think the next generation should be an Argentine-Brazilian submarine.

Argentina by building it can get the experience of building nuclear ice breakers and other vessels, plus develop more its own technology, i think the problem of South America is not the lack of technology, but the lack of commerce, i am not from South America but from Mexico, and i am glad Argentina can build so much stuff, from helicopters like Cicare to tractor or bikes, but i see very little exports of those technologies.

Argentina`s Cicare Helicopters
[video=youtube;59OL4Ap0OmE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=59OL4Ap0OmE[/video]
[video=youtube;Re2Z7hqigtY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Re2Z7hqigtY[/video][video=youtube;m7_saOkiHd4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7_saOkiHd4&feature=player_embedded[/video]

MiG-29 said:

creo que deberiamos escribir en ingles, pero bueno solo un poco de castellano.

I think it is better for Argentina to build the nuclear reactor because Brazil already will build its own nuclear reactor and nuclear Submarine, but i think the next generation should be an Argentine-Brazilian submarine.

Argentina by building it can get the experience of building nuclear ice breakers and other vessels, plus develop more its own technology, i think the problem of South America is not the lack of technology, but the lack of commerce, i am not from South America but from Mexico, and i am glad Argentina can build so much stuff, from helicopters like Cicare to tractor or bikes, but i see very little exports of those technologies.

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Argentina did design, develop and produce the Pucara (IA-58) and the Pampa (IA-63). The second had assistance from Dornier in the design of the airfoil. The Pucara was exported to Uruguay and Sira Lanka. The pucara continues to serve in Uruguay however its service in Sira Lanka was tarnished due to lack of steady supply of spare parts in a timely fashion.
The IA-63 competed in a USA Air Force tender as a trainer, and scored high points, but was ultimately not chosen.
The indigenous helicopter Cicare is a very small scout and liaison vehicle that may enjoy a limited success in Latin America or Africa.
The assault jeep “Gaucho” has been co-developed with Brazil and is entering service in both nations.
I do agree with you that the technology or the trainer engineers and technicians are not what are lacking; it is the stead supply of money that would allow a particular industry to grow and flourish. This happened for a couple of decades at Fabricaciones Militares in Cordoba and resulted in the Pucara and Pampa.
What is needed is a government that will open the national purse and not line their own pockets. Being from Latin American you can understand our dilemma. I believe that we can most assuredly say that any nation that does not produce and independently support its own equipment will be at the mercy of others for its defense.

Back to the subject of submarines. The construction of submarines from supplied plans is one thing, but to design and construct you own fleet of submarines requires that a production line remain open for several years (10 or more). That would require foreign sales in addition to your own domestic requirement. Shipbuilding is also an art. The technicians and welders are very specialized and need to be constantly working in order to stay current on techniques and to have money to feed their families. If not they will leave the country. As did Argentine shipbuilders when they left to Brazil.

if Argentine want to proceed ahead with designing and building their own submarine, it will be much better to have a partner

i want to point to RAN's Collins class, one word to describe it is painstaking, that is probaby the route you or anyone would not want to go
and i agree to the previous point of excellent north european submarine projects, South Korea is also a very good example, if Argentine can pull a South Korea it will be a very good result

i don't know how the mix of nuclear propulsion will add up to the complexity, because it has never been done before (outside country providing nuclear sub tech to another), small and flexible might be good, as i.e said, but it might not be that simple at all

I agree that the only way to proceed is to have a partner that will purchase and help co-produce the vessel. The only partner that comes to mind would be Brazil. However, they have already decided to embark on the naval building program of their own. Brazil has also partnered up with South Africa on pruduction of air to air missiles and other electronic components.
Maybe Mexico and/or Colombia are interested?
Could you explain what South Korea did? Is it regarding the Type 214 Submarines?

South Korea bought the license to produce Type 209, i don't remember how many boats were built by HDW and the rest by them, but in total they have 12 Type 209, appropriated as the Changbogo class, that is how they start building their expertise on submarine, now they're competing with HDW on submarine bids overseas with their Changbogo class

they went further with Type 214 incorporated into a new class called the SonWonIl class, which is basically still Type 214

using the 214 tech they went on to design their new generation submarine class the DSX-3000 by DSME+HDW, KSS-EX-3300 by Hyundai, and a spinoff small diesel-eletric submarine

here's some latest pic :