Submarines for the Argentine Navy
- Thread starter Miragedriver
- Start date
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Thank you. I was unaware of that information. Do you by chance know which countries posses the technology (other than the major powers) and incorporate this thermal sensor in their ASW vessels or aircraft?
How much of the thermal wake is lost in the propeller turbulance?
How much of the thermal wake is lost in the propeller turbulance?
Miragedriver
Brigadier
I image that the technology available to the USN to suppress the thermal wake surpasses that of most other western nations. Thanks again for the information.
Miragedriver
Brigadier
My apologies to the forum members that have responded to this page. I now find myself guilty of not staying on topic and digressing into the Nuclear/Conventional debate.
The original topic was for comments, suggestions, recommendations and information comparing the newest of the Chinese and Russian diesel electric submarines now available with air-independent propulsion. Basically something that can:
Lurk near the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 200m. At a speed of 10kt having a range that should be more than 4,500km. That can also handle missions such as; anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other submarines, ships and maritime assets. It should also have a low acoustic and visual signature. Finally is should accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes be able to launch anti-ship missiles and be inexpensive to acquire and maintain.
There are many “off the shelf” submarines that could fit this bill, such as:
Kilo Class (Russian)
Amur Class (Russian)
Type 39 (Chinese)
Type 41 (Chinese)
Andrasta (French)
Scorpene (French)
Type 214 (German)
The original topic was for comments, suggestions, recommendations and information comparing the newest of the Chinese and Russian diesel electric submarines now available with air-independent propulsion. Basically something that can:
Lurk near the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 200m. At a speed of 10kt having a range that should be more than 4,500km. That can also handle missions such as; anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other submarines, ships and maritime assets. It should also have a low acoustic and visual signature. Finally is should accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes be able to launch anti-ship missiles and be inexpensive to acquire and maintain.
There are many “off the shelf” submarines that could fit this bill, such as:
Kilo Class (Russian)
Amur Class (Russian)
Type 39 (Chinese)
Type 41 (Chinese)
Andrasta (French)
Scorpene (French)
Type 214 (German)
Whatever submarines the Argentine Navy might have in mind, they could be in preparation for re-taking the Falkland Islands from the British. In one of her speeches, the recently re-elected President of Argentine mentioned that the Falkland Islands are theirs and should be re-taken. Let's see how the new UK Defence Secretary would react, now that the RN has no Carrier, HM ships have been decomissioned and manpower reduced with the budget austerity drive. The British Military in particular the RN would find it very difficult to execute similar successful operations, as done during the last Falkland's War with Argentinians. A good lesson for any major power to ponder regarding defence cuts during this global down-turn, as there is a heavy price to pay.
Just a pair of technical remarks.
Nuclear subs can easily be faster than surface ships with the same length ( Froude! ) and power: they don't have wave drag if they "sail" deep enough.
The thermal wake of the nuclear sub must account for about three quarters of the thermal power of the reactor(s), the remainder being the useful power, as well as the cooling necessary for all other activities on board. You would, of course, try to dissipate all that heat over a large amount of water to reduce the temperature increase to a level you hope the other party can't detect. However without taking in too large a cooling flow, because that adds to the drag and thus the power necessary for propulsion. Mixing water by using your propeller without at the same time adding to the noise is the trick you want to achieve.
Nuclear subs can easily be faster than surface ships with the same length ( Froude! ) and power: they don't have wave drag if they "sail" deep enough.
The thermal wake of the nuclear sub must account for about three quarters of the thermal power of the reactor(s), the remainder being the useful power, as well as the cooling necessary for all other activities on board. You would, of course, try to dissipate all that heat over a large amount of water to reduce the temperature increase to a level you hope the other party can't detect. However without taking in too large a cooling flow, because that adds to the drag and thus the power necessary for propulsion. Mixing water by using your propeller without at the same time adding to the noise is the trick you want to achieve.
Miragedriver
Brigadier
With all due respect, I do not wish begin any sort of discussion over the Malvinas/Falkland War, and I would like to encourage the forum member from indicating any assumptions of future conflicts. Even through the rhetoric from Argentina’s dismal president (Cristina Kirchner) is strong the reality is the Argentine military has been starved of equipment (and money) for the past thirty years and would not be capable of mounting and invasion of the Malvinas. However, the British military is equally unable to project is military force as it once could in the 1980’s
Personally I don’t see Argentina and England going to war over the archipelago, neither has the money or the will to commit political suicide to have the islands in their possession. Additionally I believe that the fate of the inlanders should be left in the hands of the residence. They have the right of self-determination. The military dictatorship in Argentina was wrong to have invaded the islands. They gambled that the distraction would turn people attention away from the deteriorating economy.
Most educated Argentines know that the stong rhetoric is opium for the masses in order to give the illusion of a stong leadership.
antiterror13
Brigadier
How about second hand Ming class ... Chinese would be more than happy to barter some with soy bean or beef 
. Ming is effective, not too sophisticated hence easy to operate ... suit Argentinian navy very well. I bet even with a few Mings (5 ?). British navy would be scared to death
. Ming is effective, not too sophisticated hence easy to operate ... suit Argentinian navy very well. I bet even with a few Mings (5 ?). British navy would be scared to death
Miragedriver
Brigadier
How about second hand Ming class ... Chinese would be more than happy to barter some with soy bean or beef
Really!……Really!…… Sorry, but I assume that this is a joke. I don’t wish to sound cruel, but the Ming class is only a few steps above the old US Gato class from the 1940s and 1950s. Argentine used these submarines (as most other US allies did in the 1960s and 1970s). However, these were decommissioned from the ARA Navy almost three decades ago.
Any new submarine purchased, or constructed domestically would have to be equivalent to a TR-1700 or above.