Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

Equation · Oct 13, 2013

TerraN_EmpirE said:
Equation I did not have a issue with that. Klingons have a warrior cultural base they have superior strength and speed to what a human is normally capable. Khan is far from a normal human he was a genetically engineered super human. And as shown later his healing abilities were though the roof. All humans have a kind of limiter built into our central nervous system this limiter keeps us from hurting our selves with our own strength adrenal allows us to override this.
Khans physical abilities are like those of a top athletes add to this his wolverine like immune system and his strength and speed are beyond any human. In fact if you watch the scene after khan surrenders Kirk hits him repeatedly. Now first glance it looks like Kirk has lost it but I don't think so. Kirk was testing Khan, he realized that Khan was more then meets the eye. And he knows Khan is more then capable of killing his crew. he questions the sudden white flag. Kirk wanted to see what it took to make Khan bleed.
basically you were supposed to say but they were Klingons! Then get a cold chill as you realize that this guy is beyond them.

True but aren't the Klingons are supposed to be militarily tactically efficient as well? I mean they could used one of their ships to knock Khan off or figure a way to neutralize him while in combat. Either way JJ Abrams didn't make it convincing enough. All Khan did was stand there and fire his weapon or kill incoming Klingon warriors where he stand, no need to run, jump, attack, maneuver, or anything like that.

Player 0 · Oct 13, 2013

AssassinsMace said:
I think before he was even involved with Star Trek Abrams admitted he was a Star Wars fan and not a Star Trek fan. I remember that's what came back to haunt him when he was announced to direct Star Trek. The tribble thing I mentioned is exactly what he did with his TV show Lost. Throw in a polar bear on a tropical island and never mention why? People were interested because they thought it was a part of something big of why every crazy thing happened on the show. In the end many people were disappointed with Lost because they found out they were just being jerked around all this time. It means nothing to Abrams except for a gimmick at most. When he wiped out the Vulcans was he thinking how that would affect the Federation since in the original universe the Vulcans played an important role for the Federation? Or did he just kill off the Vulcans just as a gimmick? That's what I was talking about the "what if" scenarios before. What's the universe ahead going to be like without the Vulcans? Did Abrams have a plan? If you go by the TV show Lost where all the crazy stuff that happened on the show ended up having reason why it happened, he doesn't have a plan and not even thinking about because you know... he doesn't want to think when watching a movie or TV show. If you think about it anyone can do what he does. He's just fortunate that his family was already a part of Hollywood.

Personally I'm a fan of both Star Wars and Star Trek. I don't know why people have to take sides unless it's like Abrams and you don't want to think about a movie or TV show.

Thank you so much, this pretty much sums up my feelings, not just on Abrams but of the writers associated with him like Lindelof, Kurtzman and Orci. The problem with these people imo, other than their use of movie cliches and using the concept of destiny to glorify douchedom is that even, even if they understood what they were dealing with in these franchises, they wouldn't have a fucking clue what to do with them. Remember Trek's best writers have some background in the military or political activism i.e. Roddenberry, Coon or Moore; do these guys have anything remotely like that in their personal histories or education that even comes close to this? This is why Trek will fail until people in charge realize that it was a niche product designed for a niche audience, and that audience has a lot of pull if we look at the success of dramas like BSG.

Equation said:
Not to mention how in the movie Star Trek Into the Darkness had the character Kahn taking on and killing an entire squad of Klingon's all by himself! I thought Klingon's were supposed to be strong, intelligence and fearless warriors? JJ Abrams makes them look so inept...I don't like it. But the one thing I do like is the tension between the Federations and Klingon Empire about to go into war. I think that will be in the next few movies.

In all fairness, the Klingons don't have Mary Sue powers like the main characters, they're people like anyone else, kinda the point of Trek in the past was that there were no Supermen, wars are bloody and both sides take casualties and are to be avoided, that's why entities like the Borg or the Jem Hadar are so intimidating in combat but still wouldn't last in this universe because JJ is more about the juvinille 'my mary-sue can totally beat your mary-sue space marine superhero bullshit'.

AssassinsMace said:
The problem with JJ Abrams is he admitted he wasn't a Star Trek fan growing up because it required too much thinking. In the original Star Trek series what made the episode Trouble with Tribbles popular was completely lost from JJ Abrams. He just threw in a tribble in Into Darkness as a set piece. It could've been any life form. What made tribbles popular were they were a cute fury menace. There was nothing of that in Into Darkness. I mentioned earlier in the thread a story of an angered Levar Burton who was at some Star Trek studio function where he overheard JJ Abrams say he wanted his Star Trek to be the only one remembered. What's memorable about his Star Trek? Why I mentioned earlier about the Big Bang Theory talk about Raiders of the Lost Ark is JJ Abrams Star Trek contribution is equivalent to Indian Jones in that discussion. I've been reading that JJ Abrams is in nearly daily consultation with George Lucas over Star Wars. Anyone can takeover the Star Trek franchise including a TV series and no one will need to consult with JJ Abrams to get it right because he basically contributed nothing.

Abrams is an egotist of the highest order if he thinks he can muscle in and essentially steal other people's IPs for personal profit, that's not to say Paramount or Lucas or Disney are innocent little lambs, but its more to show his creative bankruptcy that he thinks he has the right to steal someone else's original property and claim it as his own just because he graffiti's his lack of talent everywhere, is thinking he'll just cross out Lucas and Roddenberry and write 'created by JJ Abrams' on the opening credits? While he's at it why not go after the Simpsons, or Lord of the Rings, or the Marvel and DC universes or Disney's back catalog? He's got just as much of a chance of success in any case and be just as deserving.

TerraN_EmpirE · Oct 13, 2013

Equation said:
True but aren't the Klingons are supposed to be militarily tactically efficient as well? I mean they could used one of their ships to knock Khan off or figure a way to neutralize him while in combat. Either way JJ Abrams didn't make it convincing enough. All Khan did was stand there and fire his weapon or kill incoming Klingon warriors where he stand, no need to run, jump, attack, maneuver, or anything like that.

that depends on how you like your Klingon's.... That sounds so.wrong...
klingons have evolved over the star trek franchises. Early Klingons were thugs they drank they laughed they killed. It was always about conquest. By star trek 3 they had changed the most obvious change was physical with ridges the second change was voiced by one of the best klingons to play the role Christopher Lloyd who made his klingon commander both cruel but relatable did what he had to do as a patriot and for his family his crew and his targ. He weeped for the death of his crew, executes a hot head gunner and scratches his pet terror dog behind the ears.
from that point on klingons start to change. The next major klingon is the Klingon ambassador to the federation a proud patriot he speaks eloquently and means every word.
kor from #5 shows a weakness well Klaw shows ambitions and Klaw's first officer shows a strong woman... Who might have qualified as a Mrs. Equation. Six shows deep rifts as the Klingons them selves question there own nation. And then comes Worf. The Samurai of the klingons. And Duras the Klingon politician. So what does this have to do with if they would not gun down Khan?
Lloyds klingon would offer khan surrender and if he so.much as blinked vaperize him.
Klaw would cry loudly and charge disruptor blazing.
Kor would take cover and begin a series of maneuvers.
the ambassador would stoically take cover and return fire.
Worf would take cover and then use his weapon to destroy the catwalk dropping Khan then close range and blast him at point blank.
Duras would send his crew to there deaths then blast khan with a ship and turn the corpse over to the romulans.

one thing I want to point out is that although khan took down a number of the Klingons in a few blasts from the catwalk he also engaged a number in hand to hand he did move around and mix it up.

Equation · Oct 13, 2013

TerraN_EmpirE said:
that depends on how you like your Klingon's.... That sounds so.wrong...
klingons have evolved over the star trek franchises. Early Klingons were thugs they drank they laughed they killed. It was always about conquest. By star trek 3 they had changed the most obvious change was physical with ridges the second change was voiced by one of the best klingons to play the role Christopher Lloyd who made his klingon commander both cruel but relatable did what he had to do as a patriot and for his family his crew and his targ. He weeped for the death of his crew, executes a hot head gunner and scratches his pet terror dog behind the ears.
from that point on klingons start to change. The next major klingon is the Klingon ambassador to the federation a proud patriot he speaks eloquently and means every word.
kor from #5 shows a weakness well Klaw shows ambitions and Klaw's first officer shows a strong woman... Who might have qualified as a Mrs. Equation. Six shows deep rifts as the Klingons them selves question there own nation. And then comes Worf. The Samurai of the klingons. And Duras the Klingon politician. So what does this have to do with if they would not gun down Khan?
Lloyds klingon would offer khan surrender and if he so.much as blinked vaperize him.
Klaw would cry loudly and charge disruptor blazing.
Kor would take cover and begin a series of maneuvers.
the ambassador would stoically take cover and return fire.
Worf would take cover and then use his weapon to destroy the catwalk dropping Khan then close range and blast him at point blank.
Duras would send his crew to there deaths then blast khan with a ship and turn the corpse over to the romulans.

Good analysis there Teran. True the early Klingons may be thugs but they are not dumb savages. Even thugs has to think and know how utilize their abilities and strengths to their advantages. How else would they be able to conquered planet after planet? I think of them as the Vikings or Kublai Khan (Yuan Dynasty) on a conquest state. They use technology, physiological warfare as well to accomplished there feat. Remember they were the first to produce a cloaking device on their ships, so that displays their ability to innovate on their own.

TerraN_EmpirE said:
one thing I want to point out is that although khan took down a number of the Klingons in a few blasts from the catwalk he also engaged a number in hand to hand he did move around and mix it up.

Yeah but all they did was conveniently ran into Khan's fist, feet, and weapon. Kind of like one of those bad guys in John Woo movies.

TerraN_EmpirE · Oct 13, 2013

Actually it was Romulans who developed the cloak the Klingons had better ships the two had a tech exchange sometime after the balance of terror and the enterprise incident. The bird of prey was a direct result of that in that it was actually a romulan design built and used by the Klingons. The relationship between the Klingon's and Romulans was supposed to be a analog to that the USSR and PRC although it ended up more equal then the real relationship at that time period.

ABC78 · Oct 25, 2013

Surprising 'Star Wars' Shakeup: Episode VII Returns to a Jedi

Surprising 'Star Wars' Shakeup: Episode VII Returns to a Jedi

Luke Skywalker has lost Little Miss Sunshine as his wingman.

In a surprising move Thursday, Lucasfilm announced that Oscar-winning scribe Michael Arndt was out as the screenwriter for the hugely anticipated "Star Wars Episode VII," replaced by the tag-team of Lawrence Kasdan and J.J. Abrams, who is also directing.

[Related: R2's Detour — Abrams Uses Unlikely Hero to Bridge Franchises ]

"I am very excited about the story we have in place and thrilled to have Larry and J.J. working on the script," Lucasfilm boss Kathleen Kennedy wrote on StarWars.com. "There are very few people who fundamentally understand the way a 'Star Wars' story works like Larry, and it is nothing short of incredible to have him even more deeply involved in its return to the big screen. J.J. of course is an incredible storyteller in his own right."

Despite the screenwriting switcheroo, the sequel remains on schedule to begin shooting next spring at Britain's Pinewood Studios for an expected 2015 release.

The bona fides for Abrams and Kasdan are inarguable. An admitted "Star Wars" fanboy, Abrams leapt at the opportunity to helm the sequel, leaving behind his successful rebooted "Star Trek" franchise. Kasdan, meanwhile, is a longtime ally of George Lucas, having co-written the screenplays for "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi," as well as "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Most fans consider "Empire" the pinnacle of the franchise.

[Related: The "Return of the Jedi" That Might Have Been]

But the bigger mystery is where things went wrong with Arndt. There was no immediate word on why his services were dismissed beyond a cursory mention at the end of Kennedy's statement.

"Michael Arndt has done a terrific job bringing us to this point," she wrote, "and we have an amazing filmmaking and design team in place already prepping for production."

A "Star Wars" scholar (Arndt has lectured widely on the films) with an unmatched résumé — Academy Award for penning "Little Miss Sunshine," a nomination for "Toy Story 3," and this fall's would-be blockbuster "Hunger Games: Catching Fire" in the pipeline — Arndt seemed like a perfect fit.

[Related: Wookiee Wanted for "Star Wars Episode VII"]

He was hired by Lucasfilm even before the company was acquired by Disney and had delivered a 40- to 50-page treatment in 2012 that reportedly envisioned an older Luke, Princess Leia, and Han Solo teaching a new generation of space jockeys.

Earlier this month, George Lucas's son, Jett, said in an interview with Flicks and the City (via Mashable) that his father was "constantly talking" to Abrams about the direction of the new film, and that he had seen the story for Episode VII.

"I already know what happens," he said. "I'm happy with what's going to happen."

Based on today's bombshell, Jett might have been one of the few.

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Player 0 · Oct 25, 2013

My question is what happened to Abrams' usual crew, what happened to Kurtzman, Orci and Lindelof? What not good enough for JJ now that he's reached his dream project and doesn't talentless hands anywhere near it?

Player 0 · Oct 26, 2013

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Found this blog a little while ago, here's some excellent reviews, analysis and retrospectives on TNG and DS9.

Generally a fantastic blog related to SF and fantasy storytelling both in terms as narratives and for thematic philosophies.

Thought you guys would like to read it.

chuck731 · Oct 26, 2013

Can you guys please stop conflating the jj Abrams goo with star trek? They are unrelated.

1. Khan is a Sikh, as explicitly stated in space seed. Does Christopher cumberbach look like a sikh?

2. Richardo Montalban's khan was an exceptionally well rounded person of superhuman ability, outstanding in leadership, cunning, thoughtfulness, interpersonal skills, well rounded in all the arts and sciences, who is undone only by his pride and ambition. Christopher cumberbach's khan was an x men villain with personality flatter than a cockroach squashed on the surface of a neutron star.

3. Shatner's Kirk had gravitas even when womanizing. Abram's kirk crawls out from under uhura's bed while while visually making the point that fruit of the loom hasn't introduced a new style of briefs in 300 years.

4. To nimoy's Spock logic is a strength, to quanto's spock logic is akin to a speech impediment.

5. Enterprise always looked plausible as product of serious engineering. Jjprise looks like a hot wheels toy version of a space drag racer.

kwaigonegin · Oct 26, 2013

chuck731 said:
Can you guys please stop conflating the jj Abrams goo with star trek? They are unrelated.

1. Khan is a sheik, as explicitly stated in space seed. Does Christopher cumberbach look like a shiek?

2. Richardo Montalban's khan was an exceptionally well rounded person of superhuman ability, outstanding in leadership, cunning, thoughtfulness, interpersonal skills, well rounded in all the arts and sciences, who is undone only by his pride and ambition. Christopher cumberbach's khan was an x men villain with personality flatter than a cockroach squashed on the surface of a neutron star.

3. Shatner's Kirk had gravitas even when womanizing. Abram's kirk crawls out from under uhura's bed while while visually making the point that fruit of the loom hasn't introduced a new style of briefs in 300 years.

4. To nimoy's Spock logic is a strength, to quanto's spock logic is akin to a speech impediment.

5. Enterprise always looked plausible as product of serious engineering. Jjprise looks like a hot wheels toy version of a space drag racer.

dang chuck.. why don't you let us know how you really feel about the ST reboots.

Personally I think JJ did a great job with the two so far although I do agree that I didn't particularly care for Cumberbatch playing Khan. Not because he is a bad actor because he isn't but because it was a miscast.

Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

Equation

Lieutenant General

Player 0

Junior Member

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

Equation

Lieutenant General

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

ABC78

Junior Member

Player 0

Junior Member

Player 0

Junior Member

chuck731

Banned Idiot

kwaigonegin

Colonel