Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
kwaigonegin said:
dang chuck.. why don't you let us know how you really feel about the ST reboots.

Personally I think JJ did a great job with the two so far although I do agree that I didn't particularly care for Cumberbatch playing Khan. Not because he is a bad actor because he isn't but because it was a miscast.
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It might have been less un-star trek if cumberbach was the only miscast. But who could utter the word "Spock" at Zachary quanto's anxiety ridden rat like visage? Is there even the faintest glimmer of shatner's majesterial conceit in the brat of a wizkid protrayed by Chris pine? Kelly's McCoy was a folksy Luddite. Karl Urban's McCoy simply never had a childhood. Doohan's Scotty was an engineer. Pegg's Scotty was a misfit hacker.
 
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Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
chuck731 said:
Can you guys please stop conflating the jj Abrams goo with star trek? They are unrelated.


1. Khan is a Sikh, as explicitly stated in space seed. Does Christopher cumberbach look like a sikh?

2. Richardo Montalban's khan was an exceptionally well rounded person of superhuman ability, outstanding in leadership, cunning, thoughtfulness, interpersonal skills, well rounded in all the arts and sciences, who is undone only by his pride and ambition. Christopher cumberbach's khan was an x men villain with personality flatter than a cockroach squashed on the surface of a neutron star.

3. Shatner's Kirk had gravitas even when womanizing. Abram's kirk crawls out from under uhura's bed while while visually making the point that fruit of the loom hasn't introduced a new style of briefs in 300 years.

4. To nimoy's Spock logic is a strength, to quanto's spock logic is akin to a speech impediment.

5. Enterprise always looked plausible as product of serious engineering. Jjprise looks like a hot wheels toy version of a space drag racer.
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I agreed, even Richardo Montaban's Khan has some human element and emotion to it with a slick sense of humor.

I.E. from the Wrath of Khan: "Khan: Of course! We are one big, happy fleet! Ah, Kirk, my old friend, do you know the Klingon proverb that tells us revenge is a dish that is best served cold?" Love it...that was classic line. :eek:
 
P

Player 0

Junior Member
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Found this just recently, for anyone who hasn't read this fantastic book, here's the motion comic.

An AU story, what's if Superman were raised in the USSR.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Yup that's a good one. I mentioned it in the movie thread.
not one but two men of steel. Stalin and Superman. Its a strange tale. When I read the graphic novel, in the extras was images of a what I guess was a early draft with a Germanic superman. Likely would have been a lot darker. Of course when I read the graphic novel one thing bugged me if Kal-el ended up in Russia what about Kara-el? I mean she had to land somewhere? Did chairman Mao have a babe of super lady communism? And if the Chinese ended up with supergirl was she enough woman for Equation? ^_~
 
P

Player 0

Junior Member
In all fairness this was an elseworld's tale and Krypton is actually earth in the very distant future in this timeline.

The only problem i had with this book was that it made Lex look too good, just because he's representing America his policies work without any hint of real oppression or stuff like that, even though he is conceited, so why is able to pull this off and not Superman? The same problem with this story is that freedom, even under the control of an egotistical supervillain, always trumps autocracy, socialism or any other type of system that demands we give up personal liberty. Though this is one of my personal favorite Superman stories, i really felt Mark Miller dropped the ball when he didn't make Lex's reign similar to Superman's and continue the theme that a dictatorship even when run by an idealized superman is bad period, and in the end Lex shoul've been portrayed no better and no less tyrannical than Superman.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Player 0 said:
In all fairness this was an elseworld's tale and Krypton is actually earth in the very distant future in this timeline.

The only problem i had with this book was that it made Lex look too good, just because he's representing America his policies work without any hint of real oppression or stuff like that, even though he is conceited, so why is able to pull this off and not Superman? The same problem with this story is that freedom, even under the control of an egotistical supervillain, always trumps autocracy, socialism or any other type of system that demands we give up personal liberty. Though this is one of my personal favorite Superman stories, i really felt Mark Miller dropped the ball when he didn't make Lex's reign similar to Superman's and continue the theme that a dictatorship even when run by an idealized superman is bad period, and in the end Lex shoul've been portrayed no better and no less tyrannical than Superman.
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Except that's not true at all. History has plenty of examples of benevolent monarchs ushering in golden ages for a particular civilization. King Solomon, Emperor Kang Xi, Louis XIV, Peter the Great, Augustus Caesar, etc. And these guys were only normal men.
 
P

Player 0

Junior Member
Yes but that's still besides the point, the theme of the story was that Superman who was pure of heart and genuine in his quest to improve the wellbeing of all humanity ultimately failed because his methods of controlling people's lives prevented them from being free. The fact that Lex Luthor succeeded where Superman failed breaks this theme of personal freedom even from a benign autocrat, and turns the theme into a very basic democracy = good socialism = bad.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
President superman's success was that he personified the best of what we all want to be. He only follows his conscience and acts to try and help.

President Superman's failing was when he started to say "what is best for the people" and didn't bother to look to other voices. His voice was the only voice. That's the problem because with it comes the temptation to play god. The people under him never stood a chance. The trap of socialism is that it demands absolute equality, via his very existence superman is exceptionalisum personified. Though he wanted what was best he was a hypocrite. His what was best would always take prejudice over any alternative. Ergo everyone was equal under his boots.
the only thing that allows his nation to stand is him. That's it because he could break a army with a finger. That's why he fails. Lex? He uses people no doubt but he still listens to them he may work his plans to push and maneuver them its underhanded but in the end he allows us our voice our failings and our exeptionalisum.

so is a god figure that only looks out for us beyond just a helping hand but down to stopping even the occasional small failing or misdeed"good"
and is a exceptional manipulator who uses people by giving them what they want to meet his own ends "evil"

its a morality tale think about it and decide for yourself.
 
P

Player 0

Junior Member
TerraN_EmpirE said:
President superman's success was that he personified the best of what we all want to be. He only follows his conscience and acts to try and help.

President Superman's failing was when he started to say "what is best for the people" and didn't bother to look to other voices. His voice was the only voice. That's the problem because with it comes the temptation to play god. The people under him never stood a chance. The trap of socialism is that it demands absolute equality, via his very existence superman is exceptionalisum personified. Though he wanted what was best he was a hypocrite. His what was best would always take prejudice over any alternative. Ergo everyone was equal under his boots.
the only thing that allows his nation to stand is him. That's it because he could break a army with a finger. That's why he fails. Lex? He uses people no doubt but he still listens to them he may work his plans to push and maneuver them its underhanded but in the end he allows us our voice our failings and our exeptionalisum.

so is a god figure that only looks out for us beyond just a helping hand but down to stopping even the occasional small failing or misdeed"good"
and is a exceptional manipulator who uses people by giving them what they want to meet his own ends "evil"

its a morality tale think about it and decide for yourself.
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I didn't get that at all from either this version or the original book, Lex shut out his own wife and only confided in those he felt he could dominate, like Olsen or whoever was in power, people who relied on him and didn't know better to disagree with him or even oppose him in any meaningful way. That's not that much better than Superman although Superman was more polite about it, in fact if anything Supes actually did confide in someone else and that someone else was Braniac and Diana, from what i saw Lex was far less willing to consult with anyone else unless he could control them or absolutely had to tolerate them like a president in power.

Plus we never actually get to see what Lex did in power so much better than Superman, we don't actually get a chance to see his government policies in action, although we don't see much of Superman's either except the oppressive lobotomies. In either case we are just left with their personalities and personal dramas, and Lex comes off as actually more dictatorial and sycophantic than Superman, at least to me.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Good points, particularly about Lois. Lois is traditionally a strong woman. In the early comics that was used against her but as time as gone by she has become more assertive well still having a heart. She could have perhaps should have played a greater role. The same goes to Diana, she may be female but she is a Amazon and a character who in my opinion is often miss cast. I don't mind her having feelings for Supes or even Bats as both are deep and complex people, but she has to be understood to be more dominant less teenage crush more Zena warrior princess.

One thought I had as I reread the comic was the American downfall, as the comic progresses and President Superman rises the American economy falls right? But wasn't Lex the one who gave Ike the formula to fix the American budgets and economy? I wonder just how much of the whole episode Lex Luther had scripted in advance.
 
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