South East Asia Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Re: ASEAN military news

Geographer said:

A problem with this map is that the EEZs are measured from each country's mainland only. A common argument of Vietnam and the Philippines is that the Paracel and/or Spratly Islands are within their EEZs, and thus their national territory. EEZs are derived from national territory, not the other way around. China claims the Paracel Islands are their national territory. We're not talking about submerged reefs, the Paracel Islands are bona fide, occupied islands. From China's perspective, the EEZ ends 200nm from those islands, or midway between the islands and another country. China believes that the border of the Vietnamese and Chinese EEZs is midway between Triton Island and Vietnam. Since the oilrig is 30km from Triton Island and more than 100 km from Vietnam, the oil rig appears to be within what China considers its EEZ. If Vietnam occupied the Paracel Islands, the boundary between the Chinese and Vietnamese EEZs would be equidistant between Hainan Island and the Paracels.

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You do understand that you are making a contradicting statement against PRC's official claim since any reef that is underwater at high tide is not considered dry land under UNCLOS jurisdiction which does not obtain EEZ therefore any and all PRC claim that falls under those premise is empty and void.

Re: ASEAN military news

SamuraiBlue said:

You do understand that you are making a contradicting statement against PRC's official claim since any reef that is underwater at high tide is not considered dry land under UNCLOS jurisdiction which does not obtain EEZ therefore any and all PRC claim that falls under those premise is empty and void.

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Which island are you claiming is submerged at high tide?

Re: ASEAN military news

climax said:

Another question for you guys: Did Chinese Government announced HY-981 operate inside PRC's EEZ or EEZ extend from Tri Ton Island or Paracel Island !?

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The rig is only 17 nm from Triton Island which puts it within the island's contiguous zone. It wouldn't even be a matter of overlapping EEZ disputes as the island's contiguous zone no where overlaps with the Vietnamese mainland's contiguous zone.

A counter question - why is the Vietnamese govt keeping quiet on it's 1958 diplomatic note that essentially acknowledges Chinese territorial claims, one of them being the Paracel Islands?

SamuraiBlue said:

You do understand that you are making a contradicting statement against PRC's official claim since any reef that is underwater at high tide is not considered dry land under UNCLOS jurisdiction which does not obtain EEZ therefore any and all PRC claim that falls under those premise is empty and void.

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Will have to ask like another poster on which specific examples are you referencing to?

Re: ASEAN military news

SamuraiBlue, the Chinese-controlled Paracel islands are real islands above high tide. They are not submerged reefs. The islands are surrounded by large reefs, though.

The Spratly Islands has several real islands above high tide, but not are currently controlled by the PRC. The largest, Itu Aba, is controlled by Taiwan. Vietnam and the Philippines control all the other bona fide islands. China currently only has some outposts built on submerged reefs. You're right that EEZs cannot be measured from submerged reefs but remember that China and Taiwan claim all the Paracel and Spratly Islands, including the ones currently occupied by Vietnam and the Philippines. China measures its own EEZ from Vietnamese, Philippine, Taiwanese, and PRC-controlled islands.

Re: ASEAN military news

jobjed said:

One day, China is going to run out of patience in trying to explain the concept of "finders keepers" and "terra nullius", and will instead consolidate her claim over her ancient territories with military force. Other claimants in the SCS disputes seem to lack the capacity for logical debate and instead can only resort to rhetoric as exemplified thoroughly here; "Why did PRC attack[].... rob those slands!?". Maybe if you refrained from asking loaded questions, other members would actually bother to answer you rationally.

People continuously object to China's rationale for claiming the SCS islands but have no corresponding objections to the rationale of every other claimant; double standards at its best. It's alright if other ASEAN countries have conflicting claims but as soon as it involves China, oh no, time to bring out the stockpile of rhetoric and play 'victim'; faker than the Gleiwitz or Marco Polo Bridge Incidents as far as I'm concerned.

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LOL
No, I know what kind of argument about PRC claim from China. No matter what kind of explanation, finally always "terra nullius" and military forces, another country can, so China can ...

"stockpile of rhetoric and play 'victim'" look like you.
Only China keep their advance, made move after move, take reef after reef from other countries, violate DOC, UNCLOS ...
Why did Vietnam need protest other country when they didn't anything to rise tension !?

You like to talk about play, I like to question, OK!? Can you answer !?

Re: ASEAN military news

Geographer said:

SamuraiBlue, the Chinese-controlled Paracel islands are real islands above high tide. They are not submerged reefs. The islands are surrounded by large reefs, though.

The Spratly Islands has several real islands above high tide, but not are currently controlled by the PRC. The largest, Itu Aba, is controlled by Taiwan. Vietnam and the Philippines control all the other bona fide islands. China currently only has some outposts built on submerged reefs. You're right that EEZs cannot be measured from submerged reefs but remember that China and Taiwan claim all the Paracel and Spratly Islands, including the ones currently occupied by Vietnam and the Philippines. China measures its own EEZ from Vietnamese, Philippine, Taiwanese, and PRC-controlled islands.

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The UN subscribes to the One China policy which means Itu Aba would be considered Chinese and of all the islands in the Spratlys, it's the one most eligible for its own EEZ. Since all other claimants press for max EEZ distances from their perspective, max EEZ distance from Itu Abu covers all Chinese activity in the Spratlys.

If Scarborough comes to mind as a counterpoint, I would bring up that even the Philippines govt identified that as a Regime of Islands in their UN filing which means it is at least eligible for territorial waters and maybe EEZ on its own accord.

climax said:

Only China keep their advance, made move after move, take reef after reef from other countries, violate DOC, UNCLOS ...

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Vietnam does this too, in fact, didn't Vietnam take Southwest Cay from the Philippines? And the recent construction on Sin Cowe Island and West Reef wouldn't really be in the spirit of the DOC either.

Re: ASEAN military news

joshuatree said:

The rig is only 17 nm from Triton Island which puts it within the island's contiguous zone. It wouldn't even be a matter of overlapping EEZ disputes as the island's contiguous zone no where overlaps with the Vietnamese mainland's contiguous zone.

A counter question - why is the Vietnamese govt keeping quiet on it's 1958 diplomatic note that essentially acknowledges Chinese territorial claims, one of them being the Paracel Islands?

Will have to ask like another poster on which specific examples are you referencing to?

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First. what kind of "keeping quiet" about that note !? - You want to ask why did Vietnamese govt don't explain it in official !?
Well, I don't remember if Vietnam Ministry of foreign Affairs was ever said about this in official way.

But, Did Chinese used 1958 diplomatic note to support their claim in official way !?
If they're not, why would Vietnamese govt need to talk about this in official way !?

The 1958 diplomatic note write by Pham Van Dong said Vietnamese govt respect the declaration about 12nm territorial water of PRC. He's said nothing about Paracel or Spratly or 11-dash-lines ... that it.

And 17nm, hmm, They can think like you said. But the way they talk about it made them being suspicion to me.

If they're truly think those areas belong and under their rightful control, why did they said: there's no clash between VN - China forces at first (after Vietnamese made a international press conference, provided many photo and video of clash between over 80 ships of Chinese and 30-60 ships of Vietnamese, from 02-05 to 07-05), and after that they announced Vietnamese forces deliberately collided with Chinese forces 171 times in five days, but did not give any evidence to reporter in press briefing !?

Well, people speak about "play" victim, but why did Hanoi need to do this !? I mean, if they do that, it's just play with fire, and they could burn themselve.

Re: ASEAN military news

Geographer said:

A problem with this map is that the EEZs are measured from each country's mainland only. A common argument of Vietnam and the Philippines is that the Paracel and/or Spratly Islands are within their EEZs, and thus their national territory. EEZs are derived from national territory, not the other way around. China claims the Paracel Islands are their national territory. We're not talking about submerged reefs, the Paracel Islands are bona fide, occupied islands. From China's perspective, the EEZ ends 200nm from those islands, or midway between the islands and another country. China believes that the border of the Vietnamese and Chinese EEZs is midway between Triton Island and Vietnam. Since the oilrig is 30km from Triton Island and more than 100 km from Vietnam, the oil rig appears to be within what China considers its EEZ. If Vietnam occupied the Paracel Islands, the boundary between the Chinese and Vietnamese EEZs would be equidistant between Hainan Island and the Paracels.

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Well, Vietnamese claim is about 200nm from mainland baseline, and Paracel, Spratly.
If we follow your way, may be that's right.
But like I know, PRC never proclaim their EEZ with those Islands, in official.

joshuatree said:

Vietnam does this too, in fact, didn't Vietnam take Southwest Cay from the Philippines? And the recent construction on Sin Cowe Island and West Reef wouldn't really be in the spirit of the DOC either.

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The event "capture" that you said happened in 1975, sir.
Vietnam did not take reef after reef by force, like Chinese, even after DOC.

DOC was agreed by ASEAN and Chinese.
Chinese keep their move and construction (very big construction site on Johnson South Reef with 500m length and 200m wide if you don't know), so Vietnamese side keep construct on their occupied Island, reef from 1975 until now. And I don't think it violate DOC spirit, nobody complain about it.
I heard Malaysia and Taiwan do the same.

The Parties undertake to exercise self-restraint in the conduct of activities that would complicate or escalate disputes and affect peace and stability including, among others, refraining from action of inhabiting on the presently uninhabited islands, reefs, shoals, cays, and other features and to handle their differences in a constructive manner.

Pending the peaceful settlement of territorial and jurisdictional disputes, the Parties concerned undertake to intensify efforts to seek ways, in the spirit of cooperation and understanding, to build trust and confidence between and among them, including.

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Re: ASEAN military news

climax said:

First. what kind of "keeping quiet" about that note !? - You want to ask why did Vietnamese govt don't explain it in official !?
Well, I don't remember if Vietnam Ministry of foreign Affairs was ever said about this in official way.

But, Did Chinese used 1958 diplomatic note to support their claim in official way !?
If they're not, why would Vietnamese govt need to talk about this in official way !?

The 1958 diplomatic note write by Pham Van Dong said Vietnamese govt respect the declaration about 12nm territorial water of PRC. He's said nothing about Paracel or Spratly or 11-dash-lines ... that it.

And 17nm, hmm, They can think like you said. But the way they talk about it made them being suspicion to me.

If they're truly think those areas belong and under their rightful control, why did they said: there's no clash between VN - China forces at first (after Vietnamese made a international press conference, provided many photo and video of clash between over 80 ships of Chinese and 30-60 ships of Vietnamese, from 02-05 to 07-05), and after that they announced Vietnamese forces deliberately collided with Chinese forces 171 times in five days, but did not give any evidence to reporter in press briefing !?

Well, people speak about "play" victim, but why did Hanoi need to do this !? I mean, if they do that, it's just play with fire, and they could burn themselve.

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Pham acknowledged the Chinese declaration of territoiral sea in 1958. That Chinese declaration lists what they consider their territory - Paracel and Spratlys included. Pham's note stated all Vietnamese State bodies will be notified to respect the 12 nm boundaries of Chinese territorial waters. You can't respect other's borders if you don't know what is their territory. That's just plain old logic at work. To say it wasn't specifically spelled out in Pham's note is a straw man argument. I can easily counter argue and say Pham's note never specifically said he objected to the Paracels and Spratlys being listed in the Chinese declaration of territorial sea either.

You basically asking why the Chinese won't bring this up to support their claim does what? The note exists and it nullifies Vietnamese claims to the Paracels. The Vietnamese are not just protesting about EEZ overlaps, they are claiming Paracels when their own govt already acknowledged Chinese ownership over 50 years ago. That's why this oil rig is a non issue to them. They are drilling off their territory.

climax said:

The event "capture" that you said happened in 1975, sir.
Vietnam did not take reef after reef by force, like Chinese, even after DOC.

DOC was agreed by ASEAN and Chinese.
Chinese keep their move and construction (very big construction site on Johnson South Reef with 500m length and 200m wide if you don't know), so Vietnamese side keep construct on their occupied Island, reef from 1975 until now. And I don't think it violate DOC spirit, nobody complain about it.
I heard Malaysia and Taiwan do the same.

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The 1975 Southwest Cay event I pointed out highlights that the Vietnamese takes reefs from others as well - full stop. Your original comment mentioned how China takes reef from others. That's my reply to that comment. Vietnam can give Southwest Cay back to the Philippines to prove me wrong.

As for violating DOC, I pointed out recent construction on Sin Cowe Island and West Reef. No "complaints" is not some pass to the DOC, Vietnamese have violated the spirit of DOC themselves many times recently. They are no victim but merely another player in this match.

Re: ASEAN military news

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