South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
How colonialism is taught in schools is important, because that is where enmity lives on.

If I look to the UK, 7 year old children in the best schools in the country are reading picture books and history lessons describing how British traders once kidnapped little African children from their parents and sold them as slaves in the Americas, in exchange for sugar and tobacco.

It also covers parliament banning the slave trade on behalf of everyone else in the world, whether they liked it or not.

But you can see there is very little romanticism in the UK about Empire.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I suggest we stop the discussion about colonialism and barbarian villages.

Every nation and every culture on this planet started out as barbarian villages. So no need to mention that. Plus, to ancient Chinese, everyone else was all barbarians. So I don't think we should take any of this kind of description literally.

And communication between ancient cultures has been much much more extensive then we thought. So no need to bring up any potential origins of any culture.

The problem at hand is SCS. I don't think anyone is thinking about colonizing any inhabited islands and any indigenous people living there. And I don't think China is aiming to colonize anyone in the SCS. So no need to get into that mess...
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yup. China is not going to conquer and colonise anyone else in the SCS.

The key point here is that China's national identity is built around being the victim of nasty colonial imperialist powers (such as Japan/France/UK/USA), so it would be very difficult for anyone in China to justify a colonisation project. Think of the US national independence myth from a nasty colonial Britain.

That victimhood mentality is also why China is taking such a tough and prickly stance on the territorial dispute in the SCS (and with the Western world generally), because China is not going to be pushed around.

That applies **especially** if Japan is involved in the SCS.

These are the reasons why it was relevant to the discussion.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
All this 'Chinese play victims!' BS narrative is cooked up by western spin doctors, the same lot who keep harping about 'saving face' as if it's some uniquely Chinese consideration that they, westerners, are far above.

The wrongs and horrors the Chinese people have endured in the past has fundamentally shaped and influenced Chinese national identity and sensitivities, but only those small minded, with ulterior motives and/or racists would reduce it so such a condescendingly petty summary ss 'prickly' or 'playing victim'. By parroting those carefully crafted lies you see in the mainstream western media, you are actually copying far more than a turn of phrase, but also taking on all the degrading, racially charged negative connotations those phrases have been deliberately designed to carry and convey.

Anyone with any real interest and intellectual honesty can see that is a far more broader and more nuanced influence that would take books to even scratch the surface.

If pushed, I would summaries that the biggest impacts the century of humiliation and pain has on modern day Chinese cultural and social values is to place fairness and strength at the forefront of desired national characteristics.

China has a very similar view towards national security as the Israelis for similar historical reasons, but that is tempered by the ancient confusion ideals of reciprocity and self restraint.

Whenever left to its own devices, China has been unfailingly pragmatic, fair, even generous in its dealings with weaker and poorer nations. Just look at how it settled all its land boarder disputes bar India and the massive concessions China made to do so. As well as the kinds of generous deals and loans the Chinese government has struck with African developing nations.

The instances the western media only reports on are where Chinese actions are not by choice, but rather reactionary moves to what China precieves as provocations and unjust smears by others. Whenever that happens, the unjust treatment stirs up an instinctive loathing and fury at every level of Chinese society, and whenever outside powers even hints at threatening to use military force, that tend to send the Chinese into survival mode where they view things through the lense of existential threat.

It is import for the west to know the depths of feelings they are blithely stirring up in China, at all levels of society, often for a few meaningless cheap political points or just for lolz it seems a lot of the time.

A double edged sword that is both a great strength and potential flaw in the Chinese national psyche is that we are patient and have very long memories. Certain countries already have a great many marks against their name in China's ledger. We should all be wary of the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back, because it would be a grave mistake indeed to assume that just because China has put up with something in the past that they will continue to put up with it indefinitely.
 
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Brumby

Major
Yup. China is not going to conquer and colonise anyone else in the SCS.

The key point here is that China's national identity is built around being the victim of nasty colonial imperialist powers (such as Japan/France/UK/USA), so it would be very difficult for anyone in China to justify a colonisation project. Think of the US national independence myth from a nasty colonial Britain.

That victimhood mentality is also why China is taking such a tough and prickly stance on the territorial dispute in the SCS (and with the Western world generally), because China is not going to be pushed around.

That applies **especially** if Japan is involved in the SCS.

These are the reasons why it was relevant to the discussion.
This is a thread on SCS strategies of other nations. it is not about history of colonisation, global survey of attitude toward China or historical lessons. Can you please don't interject non related stuff onto the thread. It is getting beyond irritating with your pattern of behaviour.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Yup. China is not going to conquer and colonise anyone else in the SCS.

The key point here is that China's national identity is built around being the victim of nasty colonial imperialist powers (such as Japan/France/UK/USA), so it would be very difficult for anyone in China to justify a colonisation project. Think of the US national independence myth from a nasty colonial Britain.

That victimhood mentality is also why China is taking such a tough and prickly stance on the territorial dispute in the SCS (and with the Western world generally), because China is not going to be pushed around.

That applies **especially** if Japan is involved in the SCS.

These are the reasons why it was relevant to the discussion.

I promise that this is my last post about China in this thread. I would like to caution this kind of description about the Chinese people as having a victim mentality.

Yes, China had painful experience of being partially colonized for about 100 years. However, please also keep in mind that China also enjoyed almost absolute military, economic and cultural dominance throughout most of its history. And most Chinese are very aware of their glorious past, as well as the pain. So typical Chinese psyche is so much more complex than just being a victim.

Additionally, most western nations in the world have had painful past of being colonized / invaded. Just ask any American about British colonization. Ask any British about Roman colonization. Ask any Scottish about English occupation. And what about the English occupation of Ireland? And how about asking an Italian about the fall of Rome? Many of these experiences lasted much longer than China's. Like the Chinese, most westerners are also very aware of their painful and glorious past. And like the Chinese, westerners also have complex psyches. Thus, we should stop characterizing China as simply one-dimension aggressors or victims.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I promise that this is my last post about China in this thread. I would like to caution this kind of description about the Chinese people as having a victim mentality.

Yes, China had painful experience of being partially colonized for about 100 years. However, please also keep in mind that China also enjoyed almost absolute military, economic and cultural dominance throughout most of its history. And most Chinese are very aware of their glorious past, as well as the pain. So typical Chinese psyche is so much more complex than just being a victim.

Additionally, most western nations in the world have had painful past of being colonized / invaded. Just ask any American about British colonization. Ask any British about Roman colonization. Ask any Scottish about English occupation. And what about the English occupation of Ireland? And how about asking an Italian about the fall of Rome? Many of these experiences lasted much longer than China's. Like the Chinese, most westerners are also very aware of their painful and glorious past. And like the Chinese, westerners also have complex psyches. Thus, we should stop characterizing China as simply one-dimension aggressors or victims.

Nicely stated Master Vesicles! in fact very well stated, you sir, are a "statesman" of the highest caliber!
 

Brumby

Major
Asean Members Walk Back Statement on South China Sea
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BEIJING—Foreign ministers from Southeast Asia jointly voiced “serious concern” over rising tensions in the South China Sea, but their unusual show of unity against Beijing appeared to collapse just hours later as their statement was retracted.

Their comments came amid China’s diplomatic blitz to discredit a coming international legal ruling on territorial claims that is expected to deliver a setback for Beijing.

In a Tuesday statement issued after a meeting with China’s foreign minister, top diplomats from the Association of Southeast Asian Nations urged respect for international law in resolving disputes, a thinly veiled swipe at Beijing’s
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from an arbitration tribunal in The Hague.

In recent weeks, the U.S. and other governments have criticized Beijing for what they term as disregard for international maritime law. The Asean ministers’ comments conveyed an unusually strong tone for a 10-member bloc that has often been divided in its response to China’s growing assertiveness in regional maritime disputes.

Hours after the statement was issued, Malaysia’s foreign ministry said Asean was retracting the document to make some changes. No explanation was given, and as of late Tuesday evening the bloc still hadn’t issued an amended statement.

A senior diplomat from an Asean country later said that the bloc has decided not to issue a joint statement and member states would release individual statements if they desired. Before the retraction, Singapore and Indonesia’s foreign ministries had separately issued individual statements that echoed the key points in the Asean ministers’ joint proclamation.

Asean, which makes decisions by consensus, has in the past struggled to find a common voice on the South China Sea disputes. Some members advocate a tougher response against Beijing, while others are reluctant to antagonize a powerful economic partner. Such discord boiled over in 2012 when a meeting of Asean foreign ministers failed to yield a joint communiqué for the first time in the bloc’s history.

In the original statement, the Asean ministers expressed their “serious concerns over recent and ongoing developments, which have eroded trust and confidence, increased tensions and which may have the potential to undermine peace, security and stability in the South China Sea.”

The Asean foreign ministers didn’t explicitly blame China for stoking tensions or refer directly to The Hague tribunal, which is expected to rule within weeks on an arbitration case filed by the Philippines in 2013 to challenge Beijing’s sweeping maritime claims.

Instead they reiterated their opposition to “militarization” and land reclamation efforts in the South China Sea, in reference to Beijing’s efforts over the past two years to construct artificial islands with facilities that could serve military purposes. The Asean ministers also called for compliance with international law, including the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, under which The Hague tribunal was set up.

Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi, speaking at a televised news briefing, didn’t refer directly to the arbitration case, but said that China and the Philippines explained their respective positions on the dispute during Tuesday’s meeting.

“The differences between China and the Philippines are well-known to all, but this isn’t an issue between China and Asean,” Mr. Wang said. “Cooperation between China and Asean is far greater than any specific discord, including the South China Sea dispute.”

China has dismissed The Hague tribunal as illegitimate and boycotted its proceedings. In recent weeks, Beijing has stepped up efforts to discredit the tribunal, for instance, by urging friendly countries to support its position on the South China Sea, where Chinese claims overlap those from five other governments, including the Philippines.

Instead of third-party arbitration, Chinese officials have long favored one-on-one talks with rival claimants, all of which are dwarfed by China militarily and economically. Beijing has said it won’t accept negotiations that rely on The Hague ruling and blamed the U.S. for hyping the issue as a pretext for advancing its military footprint in the region.

Tuesday’s meeting, held in the southern Chinese city of Yuxi, was first broached at a February gathering of Asean foreign ministers, according to diplomats from the regional bloc. Malaysia had proposed the meeting as a platform for voicing Asean concerns over recent developments in the South China Sea, the diplomats said.

The meeting ran over schedule, forcing organizers to delay Mr. Wang’s news briefing by five hours until Tuesday evening. Singapore Foreign Minister Vivian Balakrishnan, who co-chaired the meeting with Mr. Wang, canceled his appearance at what had been billed as a joint briefing as he had to catch a flight home, the Chinese foreign ministry said in response to queries about the delays. Singapore’s foreign ministry didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

Analysts say Tuesday’s statement didn’t stray far from Asean’s past rhetoric, which also urged peaceful dialogue and avoided directly apportioning blame to China.

“The statement is still a product of a least-common-denominator approach, and is careful to allow for multiple interpretations,” said Aaron Connelly, a Southeast Asia specialist at the Lowy Institute for International Policy.

“The fact that the statement does not explicitly endorse the arbitral tribunal’s jurisdiction or encourage China to accept the tribunal’s ruling as binding on all parties suggests that Asean’s least common denominator remains fairly low,” Mr. Connelly said.
 

Brumby

Major
US Navy Sends Electronic Attack Warplanes to Philippines Amid South China Sea Tensions
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Amid rising tensions in the South China Sea, the United States Navy dispatched four U.S. Navy EA-18G Growler airborne electronic attack aircraft and about 120 military personnel to Clark Air Base, an air force base located on Luzon Island in the Philippines,
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to a U.S. Seventh Fleet press release.

The four aircraft and 120 personnel arrived on June 15 for training with Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) FA-50 aircraft pilots and to support U.S. and Philippine naval operations in the South China Sea, as the statement makes clear with a veiled reference to so-called freedom of navigation operations (FONOPs) in the disputed waters.

“In addition to bilateral training missions, Growler aircraft will support routine operations that enhance regional maritime domain awareness and assure access to the air and maritime domains in accordance with international law,” the press release reads.

Boeing EA-18G Growler aircraft are designed to detect, jam, and destroy enemy radar emissions, as well as disrupt electronic warfare attacks by an adversary, according to
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:

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electronic warfare version is a derivative of the F/A-18F Block II that removes the internal gun, adds electronics within the aircraft to help it detect and jam enemy radars, and mounts four specialized ECM (Electronic CounterMeasures) pods under the wings.


The dispatch of electronic warfare planes makes sense given that the U.S. Navy has repeatedly reported difficulties in collecting data in the past due to Chinese electronic countermeasures. For example, in April 2015, a Global Hawk Long-Range surveillance drone was not able to gather data on Chinese military installations on the Spratly Islands due to Chinese electronic interference.

The EA-18G Growler aircraft are part of an air contingent at Clark Air Base stood up on April 16, following a joint announcement by U.S. Secretary of Defense Ash Carter and Philippine Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin in Manila. The contingent at Clark Air Base was made possible by a new U.S.-Philippines defense pact. This so-called
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provides U.S. military personnel and equipment access to Philippine military bases on a rotational basis, among other things.

“The first temporary Air Contingent was comprised of five A-10C Thunderbolt aircraft, three HH-60G Pave Hawk helicopters and approximately 200 personnel deployed from multiple Pacific Air Forces units. The forces deployed to the Philippines for exercise Balikatan and completed their final mission April 28, 2016,” the press statement notes.

As I
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:

The United States (…) dispatched A-10C Thunderbolt II aircraft and HH-60 Pave Hawk helicopters near Scarborough Shoal, 120 nautical miles off the coast of the Philippines’ Luzon Island, to demonstrate its commitment to the Philippines, which lays claim to Scarborough Shoal and had administered it until 2012, when China seized the feature by force. Now China appears to be
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on Scarborough Shoal.


The Philippines have taken China to court over the South China Sea disputes, including Scarborough Shoal. A ruling by the Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA) in The Hague is expected soon.
 
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