Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

chuck731

Banned Idiot
McCarthyism told us that those officials were Communist agents of influence. .

You need to appreciate the reputation of the accusations made during the McCarthy era is such that the word McCarthyism has become among the most pejorative terms, and McCarthyist is now one of the the worst epitaphs, that could be printed in modern American political discourse. It would have to be one fringy lunatic to knowingly cite McCarthyist accusations as main support for one’s point.

according to General Albert Wedemeyer, the highest US authority in China then. he would drop men behind Japanese lines, and the reports did not confirm the CCP's brave and effective guerrilla fights by any means. Wedemeyer doubted the service officers' high praise of the CCP's war efforts.

Wedemeyer had military personnel to observe the Japanese-CCP lines. Wedemeyer's opinion was based on intelligence reports. the service officers' reports were based on largely opinions, no intelligence information. think we should believe Wedemeyer's opinion rather than the service officers...



Wedermeyer became deeply involved in McCarthyist politics after his retirement from the US Army in 1951. He was one of the main McCarthyist advocates during the "Who Lost China" political show. What he claimed in the 1951s to have been his views in 1944-1945 conflicted deeply with official documents he signed his name to and policies he actually advocated in 1944-1945. His personal integrity is not without question because he manifestly perjured himself in these subsequent highly political and politicized testimonies.



Wedemeyer's position was clear. he will give military supplies to any Chinese forces that were fighting the Japanese. The CCP always pressured him for military aid. he will give weapons and ammunition to the CCP but they must prove their fighting capability first but the CCP told Wedemeyer that they will fight once they received the military supplies. Wedemeyer said he gave military supplies only to the force that was fighting the Japanese and bore the full brunt of the Japanese's attacks. That would be the KMT national government of China. the CCP wrote a letter under Zhu De’s name to Wedemeyer asking for a $20 million USD dollar loan in 1945. Wedemeyer declined to give the loan. the CCP hated Wedemeyer forever. ..

Actually, Wedemeyer's advocacy of direct support for KMT during WWII was mainly limited to the release of lend lease supplies already earmarked to the nationalist government, but was withheld from Jiang by his predecessor General Stillwell. In 1944-1945, when US expected the war to continue through 1946 and would very much like Chinese manpower to help support forthcoming invasion of Japan, Wedermeyer advocated for both KMT and CCP to undertake confidence building measures in order to be able to coordinate their efforts and not squander their efforts against each other.

Wedermeyer's advocacy for intensive support of KMT forces only occurred well after the end of the war with Japan, when KMT was already fighting with CCP for control of China. He didn't think KMT forces were very battleworthy. He earned CCP's hatred largely because in 1947 he vocally advocated high level of integration of US forces and KMT forces, and the embedding of American officers at every level of KMT military command, from battalion and regiment upwards, to stiffen its resolve and improve its fighting ability against CCP. This is more likely the chief source of CCP's undying hatred. His politics were clearly not those of the American administration. At the time, Truman not only didn't want direct American involvement in Chinese civil war, he imposed a full Arms Embargo against KMT to drive KMT to the negotiating table. This is also something the CCP would not care to remember, at least not openly.

Wedermeyer's tenure as senior American officer working with Jiang started only near the end of 1944, after KMT armies had done suffering the huge defeats and territorial losses during Japanese Army's 1944 Iichi Go offensive. During that operation a force of 17 Japanese divisions of a quality and standard of equipment that would see it easily annihilated on the battlefield in Russia or Western Europe advanced 1000 miles and cut KMT held China in two. KMT forces seem to melt in front of it. For much of the war, the American on the spot was General Joseph Stillwell. It was Stillwell who had the chance to observe the evolution of KMT forces from 1941-1944, and observe the overall progress of the war between Japan and China for most of its course. To set your mind at ease about Stillwell being a "Communist agents of influence" he was, like Wedermeyer, a conservative Republican and arch Roosevelt hater. He is further more from a family of particularly outstandingly rabid Roosevelt and New Deal bashers. He was certainly no liberal much less communist. His view was during the latter part of his tenure, the communists were the most effective Japanese fighters in China. He advocated American support for CCP at least on a equal basis with American support for KMT. He felt KMT was corrupt, had no stomach for any real fight, and any lend lease equipment actually given to KMT in China is largely wasted. This is why he withheld American lend lease equipment to KMT and doled them out only to KMT units fighting outside china, and therefore under his own direct supervision. He referred to CCP commander Zhu De as the best field commander he saw during his tenure in China, and after leaving his post in 1944, he expressed regret at never having the opportunity to conduct a joint tactical operation in cooperation with Zhu De. There is a reason why, unlike Wedermeyer, a statue of "Vinegar Joe" Stillwell in the uniform of a 4 star American General now stands in Chinese city of Chongqing. And I repeat he is no "Communist agents of influence".

But as you can see, American assessment of relative efficacy of CCP and KMT from qualified individuals spans a whole spectrum. It does not do to cherry pick and accuse those whose opinion does not suit as "Communist agents of influence".
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
Do I understand correctly that you say the US didn't support the CCP?

The US didn't send CCP large quantity of arms and equipment. But politically the US sought to nurture the CCP as both a hedge against and a counterpoint to KMT, which from 1943 onwards the US really had very low opinion for.

After cold war sharpened, the abysmal reputation of KMT in the US was rehabilitated to that of a glorious anti-communist hero on the principle of "the enemy of my enemy". But just a few years before, the US regarded the KMT greedy, corrupt, autocratic, power hungry scoundrels.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
There are over 60 years of propaganda from all sides regarding the War of Resistance against Japan. Plenty of source materials to choose from if one wanted to cherry-pick.

There is no doubt that the communists built an extensive narrative around aggrandizing their own achievements and belittling those of their adversary. However, it would be incredibly naive to think the nationalists did not do the same as well.

The fact is, the CPC military emerged from WW2 as an experienced veteran force. The claim that they largely avoided engagements against the Japanese goes directly against that reality. CPC generals were some of the finest commanders in the 20th century. CPC soldiers were some of the toughest and most battle-hardened troops of their time. You simply cannot get that kind of army by just recruiting starving peasants and avoiding battles.

There is no doubt that the NRA carried the brunt of the fighting against the Japanese, but that itself is nothing remarkable. The KMT was the government of China at the time, and had been since 1911, while the CPC was just a rebel group. While the soldiers of the NRA, including many officers, fought valiantly, the overall quality of leadership from Jiang had been criticized by many contemporary military leaders.
 

lightspeed

Junior Member
You need to appreciate the reputation of the accusations made during the McCarthy era is such that the word McCarthyism has become among the most pejorative terms, and McCarthyist is now one of the the worst epitaphs, that could be printed in modern American political discourse. It would have to be one fringy lunatic to knowingly cite McCarthyist accusations as main support for one’s point.

Wedermeyer became deeply involved in McCarthyist politics after his retirement from the US Army in 1951. He was one of the main McCarthyist advocates during the "Who Lost China" political show. What he claimed in the 1951s to have been his views in 1944-1945 conflicted deeply with official documents he signed his name to and policies he actually advocated in 1944-1945. His personal integrity is not without question because he manifestly perjured himself in these subsequent highly political and politicized testimonies.

Wedermeyer's tenure as senior American officer working with Jiang started only near the end of 1944, after KMT armies had done suffering the huge defeats and territorial losses during Japanese Army's 1944 Iichi Go offensive. During that operation a force of 17 Japanese divisions of a quality and standard of equipment that would see it easily annihilated on the battlefield in Russia or Western Europe advanced 1000 miles and cut KMT held China in two. KMT forces seem to melt in front of it. For much of the war, the American on the spot was General Joseph Stillwell. It was Stillwell who had the chance to observe the evolution of KMT forces from 1941-1944, and observe the overall progress of the war between Japan and China for most of its course. To set your mind at ease about Stillwell being a "Communist agents of influence" he was, like Wedermeyer, a conservative Republican and arch Roosevelt hater. He is further more from a family of particularly outstandingly rabid Roosevelt and New Deal bashers. He was certainly no liberal much less communist. His view was during the latter part of his tenure, the communists were the most effective Japanese fighters in China. He advocated American support for CCP at least on a equal basis with American support for KMT. He felt KMT was corrupt, had no stomach for any real fight, and any lend lease equipment actually given to KMT in China is largely wasted. This is why he withheld American lend lease equipment to KMT and doled them out only to KMT units fighting outside china, and therefore under his own direct supervision. He referred to CCP commander Zhu De as the best field commander he saw during his tenure in China, and after leaving his post in 1944, he expressed regret at never having the opportunity to conduct a joint tactical operation in cooperation with Zhu De. There is a reason why, unlike Wedermeyer, a statue of "Vinegar Joe" Stillwell in the uniform of a 4 star American General now stands in Chinese city of Chongqing. And I repeat he is no "Communist agents of influence".

But as you can see, American assessment of relative efficacy of CCP and KMT from qualified individuals spans a whole spectrum. It does not do to cherry pick and accuse those whose opinion does not suit as "Communist agents of influence".


Senator McCarthy had a large number of Communist agents right according to VENONA papers. McCarthy was right to a large degree. the Americans would never fully admit the shameful facts that Presidents Roosevelt and Truman were surrounded by hundreds of Communist agents or agents of influence in the Democratic Party, White House, Department of War and other government agencies. some of them were exposed, tried and convicted. those agents skillfully hijacked the US's foreign policy to advance the Communists’ interests then. take note that it’s never easy to expose an agent of influence. those Communists were exceedingly smart and cunning then.

i don’t find General Wedemeyer’s testimonies contradictory to his earlier actions. Wedermeyer said he advocated for KMT-CCP cooperation in accordance with the US's policy during ww2. Ambassador Patrick Hurley wanted KMT-CCP unity too and even suggested a KMT-CCP coalition government after ww2. that was the US’s policy then. do elaborate with the facts on why you doubted Wedemeyer's personal integrity: the official documents' contradiction. i believe General Wedemeyer regardless of ideology was speaking what he believed to be the truth in the best interests of the US and China.

i wonder what General Stilwell actually witnessed to conclude his views of the KMT and CCP armies then. i have only read Stillwell’s conclusive statements with no elaboration of it. Stillwell was surrounded by pro-Communist foreign service officers during his time in China. he might be liberal but he was still pro-Chinese Communist. you should know Ambassador Hurley pointed out that Stillwell liked the Chinese Communists a lot since the early 1930s. put it this way. Stillwell can only see the negatives of the KMT and positives of the CCP but Wedemeyer saw both the positives and negatives of the KMT and CCP and he empathized with the KMT’s cause.

you mentioned Operation Number 1 offensive. did Stillwell mention the fact in his works that not a single CCP unit came out of retirement to engage the large Japanese forces who were making their biggest land operation in the war, and the Japanese made their advances past CCP occupied territories with much ease on the way to attack Capital Chungking ?

do allow me to cherry pick more claims. someone did a study of CCP archive Liu Shaoqi materials: the 200 telegrams from Yanan Liu Shaoqi to the New Fourth Army from 1938-1940. the telegrams largely consisted of orders and instructions to contend against the KMT, the telegrams practically had no messages on contending against the Japanese. i believe this revelation is shocking. it tells us a lot about the CCP’s attitude toward the war then. what do you make of it ?

have you read this two PRC books “潘汉年在上海”and “潘汉年的情报生涯” ?

i don’t and can’t deny that the KMT was ineffectual in many ways during the war. but I believe they did a good enough job to a large degree considering the circumstances and terrible conditions in all aspects then. needless to repeat again that the KMT and CCP's accusations and propaganda against each other weren't all true, much of it is exaggerated. but the KMT, not the CCP suffered a lot from the bad press. the lies or misinformation of the past developed a form of its own and become our facts and truths today.
 

lightspeed

Junior Member
oh great, we accept cult website as legitimate source now? are you quoting Scientology next?


oh, no. i didn't know that Su Yu was a member of whatever cult website.

just for info.

我曾经说过,华东的解放,特别是淮海战役的胜利,离不开山东民工的小推车和大连生产的大炮弹。
( 粟裕战争回忆录 )

Su Yu thought that artillery shells supplied from Soviet held Dairen was vital in the CCP 1948 East China victories.
 

shen

Senior Member
oh, no. i didn't know that Su Yu was a member of whatever cult website.

just for info.

我曾经说过,华东的解放,特别是淮海战役的胜利,离不开山东民工的小推车和大连生产的大炮弹。
( 粟裕战争回忆录 )

Su Yu thought that artillery shells supplied from Soviet held Dairen was vital in the CCP 1948 East China victories.

Su Yu is reported by to have thought so by a cult website.
fyi, the same cult website also report modern medical science is a hundred years old scam.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


actually, the quote you posted says, "the victory of Huaihai Campaign was inseparable from the wheelbarrows pushed by the people of the northeast and the artillery shells made in Dalian."
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
Su Yu is reported by to have thought so by a cult website.
fyi, the same cult website also report modern medical science is a hundred years old scam.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the whatever cult website link did not mention Su Yu at all.

i read Su Yu's memoir and copy/paste that sentence here.
 

shen

Senior Member
i used Su Yu's words as additional information. the cult website's link did not mention Su Yu at all. why can't you understand it ?

refer to my translation in my earlier post of the quote you refer to Su Yu. where did it mention Soviet support?
 
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