Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

lightspeed

Junior Member
Stalin stabbed Mao in the back pretty clearly in 1945, when in return for KMT acquiescing to soviet sphere of influence in Outer Mongolia, the Soviet Union gave KMT full recognition as sole legitimate government of china, and gave KMT most of what the KMT wanted, including departure of soviet influence in xingjian, recognition that former soviet prewar possessions in manchurian belonged to kmt's china, and gave CCP almost no military support.


the cunning Soviets skillfully played both the KMT and CCP to advance their best interests. the Soviets facilitated the CCP’s takeover of North Manchuria. it is not true that the Soviets gave the CCP almost no military support. the Soviets apparently gave the CCP massive supplies of artillery and shells that enabled the CCP to defeat the KMT in the civil war. the CCP’s artillery power advantage was the deciding factor to winning the war then. CCP general Su Yu wrote some work which he boasted of his army having the artillery advantage over the KMT troops, the artilleries and shells all given by the Soviets.

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
the cunning Soviets skillfully played both the KMT and CCP to advance their best interests. the Soviets facilitated the CCP’s takeover of North Manchuria. it is not true that the Soviets gave the CCP almost no military support. the Soviets apparently gave the CCP massive supplies of artillery and shells that enabled the CCP to defeat the KMT in the civil war. the CCP’s artillery power advantage was the deciding factor to winning the war then. CCP general Su Yu wrote some work which he boasted of his army having the artillery advantage over the KMT troops, the artilleries and shells all given by the Soviets.

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No, the soviets simply didn't destroy or take with them the entire stockpile of Japanese weapons and munition the soviets had captured during the manchurian champaign, and left some of it for the CCP.

Little of CCP actually consisted of weapons of Soviet origin until after the formation of the people's republic. Stalin recognized Jiang and KMT as China's sole legitimate authority right up to the end of letter's stay in Nangjing.
 

lightspeed

Junior Member
No, the soviets simply didn't destroy or take with them the entire stockpile of Japanese weapons and munition the soviets had captured during the manchurian champaign, and left some of it for the CCP.

Little of CCP actually consisted of weapons of Soviet origin until after the formation of the people's republic. Stalin recognized Jiang and KMT as China's sole legitimate authority right up to the end of letter's stay in Nangjing.


Stalin didn’t take into consideration the Soviet’s recognition of KMT as sole legitimate government of China when he gave the military aid to the CCP. the KMT knew about it. they officially protested to the deceitful Soviets who denied the charges or ignored them. the KMT’s protests changed nothing in the situation then.

what about CCP general Su Yu’s words ?
if Su Yu said he had the Soviet artilleries and shells in 1948, and it’s likely that his army wasn’t the only CCP army that received the Soviet military supplies, this information corroborates the claim that the CCP had huge Soviet military aid or Su Yu never wrote it and this is an untruth / anti-CCP lie whatever.
 

delft

Brigadier
in fact, the KMT’s guerrilla fighters were the ones doing the real intelligence and sabotage missions against the Japanese. very little is known of the KMT’s guerrilla force.
Rather contradictory.

the Communist troops avoided direct or indirect confrontation with the Japanese troops as much as possible. the CCP did very little to negatively affect the Japanese's position.
After the end of the war the communists proved to be the competent fighters, KMT forces were not. PLA must have developed its prowess by fighting the Japanese, while the much larger KMT forces withered due to corruption.
 

shen

Senior Member
the cunning Soviets skillfully played both the KMT and CCP to advance their best interests. the Soviets facilitated the CCP’s takeover of North Manchuria. it is not true that the Soviets gave the CCP almost no military support. the Soviets apparently gave the CCP massive supplies of artillery and shells that enabled the CCP to defeat the KMT in the civil war. the CCP’s artillery power advantage was the deciding factor to winning the war then. CCP general Su Yu wrote some work which he boasted of his army having the artillery advantage over the KMT troops, the artilleries and shells all given by the Soviets.

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oh great, we accept cult website as legitimate source now? are you quoting Scientology next?
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
It was not just the soviets who played CCP and KMT. The United States did as well. The United States had limited interest in any side in china, CCP or KMT, attaining enough influence to successfully establishing a independent modern state with the ability to exclude foreign influence and allow china to act as a cohesive self-willed agent on the international stage. But the US has a lot of interest in using Chinese forces to tie down as much Japanese interest as possible, and equally importantly be able to use Chinese manpower in various schedule offensives against japan, culminating in projected invasion of japan in late 1945.

The US was none too pleased with jiang's unwillingness to commit large number of Chinese troops to major western sponsored offensives against japan outside china. The US was also disappointed by the abysmal performance if KMT troops inside china in 1944. So for much of 1944-1945, the United States sent envoys to Yan'An and constantly threatens Jiang with switching its recognition and support from KMT to CCP to pressure Jiang to kowtow to American priorities in the East Asia theater.

American double game also continued after 1945, and kept channels to CCP open and insisted upon inclusion of CCP in many high level negotiations between US and china as a way to pressure Jiang. This is something which Chinese communist party will never fail to forget in their own version of history. Indeed the back channel between the CCP and the US state department, operation behind the back of KMT, remained open until after the fall of KMT capital at Nangjing to the CCP in 1949. When the United States was prepared to switch diplomatic recognition from KMT to CCP, and give the KMT up as a list cause, while preventing the USSR from gaining a monopoly of foreign influence over communist china.

But Mao had decided by this time that despite stalin's treachery, communist China's future lay with the USSR, not USA, and spurned American entreaties. But even so back channel contact continued between the CCP and te US state department.

China likes to portray communist struggle as a struggle of the clean, honest underdog against a mighty but correct and overbearing nationalist war machine backed by the full might of the arch imperialist power if United States. But the communists would never admit just how little direct support the United States actually have to the KMT during the Chinese civil war, and how much American double dealing may in fact have hampered Jiang. It is easy to dismiss the McCarthyism canard of "who lost china". But if one really looks at all the dealings between USA and all fractions in china, it became clear the question is legitate at a deeper level. The United States had hedged its bets by playing all sides, and yet was left with almost nothing in china proper. How?

The final rupture between CCP and USA didn't occur until Chinese troops attacked across Yalu in 1950 during the Korean War.

It might be said that Stalin permitted the Korean War in apart to ensure a decisive break between CCP and USA, and ensure Mao would not have the opportunity to play the USSR against the USA for mao's benefit.
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
Rather contradictory.

After the end of the war the communists proved to be the competent fighters, KMT forces were not. PLA must have developed its prowess by fighting the Japanese, while the much larger KMT forces withered due to corruption.


why did the KMT, Japan, US and USSR reports largely correspond with each other and stated that the CCP did little to no fighting during the war ? there must be some truth in it. according to the Chinese and Japanese war records, there are only about 200 CCP-Japan battles. in contrast, the KMT had 40,000 battles with the Japanese.

the so-called CCP’s significant unnoticeable guerrilla or rear ground operations are largely mentioned in the 200 recorded battles. there are few noteworthy achievements in the CCP’s battles except for Pingxingguan, Hundred Regiments and few others. the facts and statistics tell the truth. go figure.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
why did the KMT, Japan, US and USSR reports largely correspond with each other and stated that the CCP did little to no fighting during the war ? there must be some truth in it. according to the Chinese and Japanese war records, there are only about 200 CCP-Japan battles. in contrast, the KMT had 40,000 battles with the Japanese.

the so-called CCP’s significant unnoticeable guerrilla or rear ground operations are largely mentioned in the 200 recorded battles. there are few noteworthy achievements in the CCP’s battles except for Pingxingguan, Hundred Regiments and few others. the facts and statistics tell the truth. go figure.

That's not entirely true either.

It is true that from 1937-1940, KMT forces conducted most of the large scale conventional battles ever fought between china and japan in WWII, often fighting very hard and achieving some impressive successes, while CCP sat mostly on the sidelines and Mao snickered at jiang's retreat with the adage about "occupying the latrine pits but can't defecate". But keep in mind almost all of the sterling battles fought by the KMT against Japanese occurred before 1940. Between 1941-1944 KMT forces in china hardly has any major engagements or successes against the Japanese to its name. It did however inflict some significant setbacks upon the CCP in 1941.

By 1944 the relationship between Jiang and Roosevelt has deteriorated and the United States were using the CCP guerrilla fight to beat over the jiang's head with. The US sent an envoy to Yan'An, and insinuated to Jiang that if KMT forces couldn't deliver in the fight against japan, the US knew where to find forces that could. I think after nationalist forces' abysmal performance against Japanese army's Iichi-go offensive in 1944, the US certainly thought the communists were more willing and more able to fight, both because of the quality of fighting forces and the better popular support in its base area.

When communist china sought to rekindle the memory of sino-American cooperation during the war against japan as a way to countering the more favorable publicity japan currently enjoys in the US, they here drawing on more than just US - KMT cooperation.
 
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lightspeed

Junior Member
That's not entirely true either.

It is true that from 1937-1940, KMT forces conducted most of the large scale conventional battles ever fought between china and japan in WWII, often fighting very hard and achieving some impressive successes, while CCP sat mostly on the sidelines and Mao snickered at jiang's retreat with the adage about "occupying the latrine pits but can't defecate". But keep in mind almost all of the sterling battles fought by the KMT against Japanese occurred before 1940. Between 1941-1944 KMT forces in china hardly has any major engagements or successes against the Japanese to its name. It did however inflict some significant setbacks upon the CCP in 1941.

By 1944 the relationship between Jiang and Roosevelt has deteriorated and the United States were using the CCP guerrilla fight to beat over the jiang's head with. The US sent an envoy to Yan'An, and insinuated to Jiang that if KMT forces couldn't deliver in the fight against japan, the US knew where to find forces that could. I think after nationalist forces' abysmal performance against Japanese army's Iichi-go offensive in 1944, the US certainly thought the communists were more willing and more able to fight, both because of the quality of fighting forces and the better popular support in its base area.

When communist china sought to rekindle the memory of sino-American cooperation during the war against japan as a way to countering the more favorable publicity japan currently enjoys in the US, they here drawing on more than just US - KMT cooperation.


the KMT had 7 major engagements with the Japanese after Pearl Harbor to end of ww2 in 3 years 8 months. there are 4 victories: third Battle of Changsha 1942, Battle of West Hubei 1943, Battle of Changde 1943 and Battle of West Hunan 1945. it is a myth that the KMT did little fighting in the second half of the war.

the foreign service officers / diplomats in the State of Department promoted the CCP's brave and effective guerrilla fights to advance their goal of giving military aid to the CCP. McCarthyism told us that those officials were Communist agents of influence. according to General Albert Wedemeyer, the highest US authority in China then. he would drop men behind Japanese lines, and the reports did not confirm the CCP's brave and effective guerrilla fights by any means. Wedemeyer doubted the service officers' high praise of the CCP's war efforts.

Wedemeyer had military personnel to observe the Japanese-CCP lines. Wedemeyer's opinion was based on intelligence reports. the service officers' reports were based on largely opinions, no intelligence information. think we should believe Wedemeyer's opinion rather than the service officers.

Wedemeyer's position was clear. he will give military supplies to any Chinese forces that were fighting the Japanese. the CCP always pressured him for military aid. he will give weapons and ammunition to the CCP but they must prove their fighting capability first but the CCP told Wedemeyer that they will fight once they received the military supplies. Wedemeyer said he gave military supplies only to the force that was fighting the Japanese and bore the full brunt of the Japanese's attacks. that would be the KMT national government of China. the CCP wrote a letter under Zhu De’s name to Wedemeyer asking for a $20 million USD dollar loan in 1945. Wedemeyer declined to give the loan. the CCP hated Wedemeyer forever.
 

delft

Brigadier
the KMT had 7 major engagements with the Japanese after Pearl Harbor to end of ww2 in 3 years 8 months. there are 4 victories: third Battle of Changsha 1942, Battle of West Hubei 1943, Battle of Changde 1943 and Battle of West Hunan 1945. it is a myth that the KMT did little fighting in the second half of the war.

the foreign service officers / diplomats in the State of Department promoted the CCP's brave and effective guerrilla fights to advance their goal of giving military aid to the CCP. McCarthyism told us that those officials were Communist agents of influence. according to General Albert Wedemeyer, the highest US authority in China then. he would drop men behind Japanese lines, and the reports did not confirm the CCP's brave and effective guerrilla fights by any means. Wedemeyer doubted the service officers' high praise of the CCP's war efforts.

Wedemeyer had military personnel to observe the Japanese-CCP lines. Wedemeyer's opinion was based on intelligence reports. the service officers' reports were based on largely opinions, no intelligence information. think we should believe Wedemeyer's opinion rather than the service officers.

Wedemeyer's position was clear. he will give military supplies to any Chinese forces that were fighting the Japanese. the CCP always pressured him for military aid. he will give weapons and ammunition to the CCP but they must prove their fighting capability first but the CCP told Wedemeyer that they will fight once they received the military supplies. Wedemeyer said he gave military supplies only to the force that was fighting the Japanese and bore the full brunt of the Japanese's attacks. that would be the KMT national government of China. the CCP wrote a letter under Zhu De’s name to Wedemeyer asking for a $20 million USD dollar loan in 1945. Wedemeyer declined to give the loan. the CCP hated Wedemeyer forever.
Do I understand correctly that you say the US didn't support the CCP?
 
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