Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.
- Thread starter Phead128
- Start date
shen
Senior Member
Soviet occupation of Manchuria (Northeast) lasted until 1955, but that didn't stop full scale war between CCP and KMT in Manchuria, in which KMT forces were decisively defeated.
There is no need to look for conspiracy theory to explain KMT defeat. Jiang's regime was corrupt was to its core. KMT party itself recognized that when they tried to depose him in 1949. During the civil war, mass defection of KMT soldiers to CCP was the important reason it lost. KMT lost the hearts and mind of Chinese people, or in more traditional terms, the mandate of heaven.
lightspeed
Junior Member
the KMT deserved to lose the civil war or not is never my point. it is about debunking the myths and acknowledging the facts. the Soviets gave significant military aid to the CCP to win the civil war, and this is a fact and it is my point.
shen
Senior Member
how are artillery shells made by Chinese workers, in a Chinese city, transported by wheelbarrow pushed by Chinese, "signficant military aid" by the Soviets?
the civil war was won by CCP soldiers almost entirely armed with captured KMT, Japanese and American weapons. not Soviet weapons.
lightspeed
Junior Member
Dairen is important to understanding the deep CCP-Soviet collaboration and KMT-CCP battles in Manchuria.
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The communists are concerned their own victory in the civil war would be revealed to be less glorious if the powers of their enemies are seen to have been limited by their corruption, feebleness and dissolution. Therefore they fictionalizing large scale American support for their enemies in order to paint their own victory in more flatteringly heroic light.
The nationalists are concerned that communist victory points too sharply to the corrupt, feeble and dissolute nature of their own regime. Therefore they fictionalizing large scale Soviet support for the communists in order to minimize their own culpability in their own defeat.
I think a more realistic vision is one brutally power hungry, autocratic but as yet slightly less corrupted fraction defeated another equally brutally power hungry, autocratic fraction that had become more corrupted by the demands of having to actually governing a profoundly divided country in time of lengthy war.
There is no doubt if there was no Sino-Japanese war, KMT would not have become quite as autocratic, nor as loathed and corrupt as it was after the travails of that war. There is also no doubt KMT was on an upswing in terms domestic consolidation and international recognition in 1937 before Japanese attack, and show every indication of being able to establish a reasonable national regime and crush communists like bugs were it not for the 8 years of relative steady opportunity for consolidation and growth the communists enjoyed directly as a result of the Sino-Japanese war. There is no doubt communists rode metaphorically on Japanese tanks from near oblivion to a position where they can seize power from the KMT.
But once the Sino-Japanese war was over, and KMT and CCP are once again overtly at each other's throats, direct foreign influence really had much less of a supporting role for their opponents than either side would like posterity to believe. But by then it was too late for the KMT.
The nationalists are concerned that communist victory points too sharply to the corrupt, feeble and dissolute nature of their own regime. Therefore they fictionalizing large scale Soviet support for the communists in order to minimize their own culpability in their own defeat.
I think a more realistic vision is one brutally power hungry, autocratic but as yet slightly less corrupted fraction defeated another equally brutally power hungry, autocratic fraction that had become more corrupted by the demands of having to actually governing a profoundly divided country in time of lengthy war.
There is no doubt if there was no Sino-Japanese war, KMT would not have become quite as autocratic, nor as loathed and corrupt as it was after the travails of that war. There is also no doubt KMT was on an upswing in terms domestic consolidation and international recognition in 1937 before Japanese attack, and show every indication of being able to establish a reasonable national regime and crush communists like bugs were it not for the 8 years of relative steady opportunity for consolidation and growth the communists enjoyed directly as a result of the Sino-Japanese war. There is no doubt communists rode metaphorically on Japanese tanks from near oblivion to a position where they can seize power from the KMT.
But once the Sino-Japanese war was over, and KMT and CCP are once again overtly at each other's throats, direct foreign influence really had much less of a supporting role for their opponents than either side would like posterity to believe. But by then it was too late for the KMT.
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solarz
Brigadier
I would agree with the other parts of your post, but this part is doubtful, especially considering that Japan successfully invaded NW China back in 1931. The same kind of thinking exhibited by Jiang that led to him essentially abandoning NW China in 1931 would not have allowed him to build a prosperous China after 1937.
At best, I am reminded of the Southern Song Dynasty, where the Song rulers lived in the shadow of Jin's military might. Just as it did not end well for Southern Song, it would not have ended well for the ROC with an Imperial Japan sitting across the Yellow River.
lightspeed
Junior Member
the saying that Soviet Union gave little to no material, training, expert advice or assistance to the CCP then is as ridiculous as the saying that China gave little military support to the North Vietnamese then. the opposite is true in both cases.
the captured Japanese and KMT armament weren’t enough for the CCP. there is no way that the CCP can make so much armament then. the CCP had limited resources to do it by any means. a large portion of CCP’s armament definitely came from the Soviets. the CCP's sudden increase of artillery power in 1948 is never explained. the Soviet archive stated the CCP asked the Soviets for artilleries in early 1948 and they gave it to them in mid 1948.
connect the dots to find out the truth. it is basically just common sense. think about it.
the captured Japanese and KMT armament weren’t enough for the CCP. there is no way that the CCP can make so much armament then. the CCP had limited resources to do it by any means. a large portion of CCP’s armament definitely came from the Soviets. the CCP's sudden increase of artillery power in 1948 is never explained. the Soviet archive stated the CCP asked the Soviets for artilleries in early 1948 and they gave it to them in mid 1948.
connect the dots to find out the truth. it is basically just common sense. think about it.
If the host country doesn't have its own VJ Day celebration, then I don't think a minority chest thumping over the downfall of another minority will help the image of overseas Chinese in that host country very much.