You make it sound like the Japanese minority are the victims in this "chest thumping". Oh right, because they were the ones who suffered an 8 year invasion instead of the Chinese. This isn't a case of schadenfreude in that it is an expression of joy at the misfortune of others; it is an expression of joy at the ending of horrors inflicted on oneself. Given the nature of an invasion, the ending of horrors inflicted on the invaded obviously accompanies the misfortune of the invaders, but that does not prove that the celebrations are directed at the latter occurrence; it's just that the latter occurrence coincides with the celebrated occurrence.
Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.
- Thread starter Phead128
- Start date
You make it sound like the Japanese minority are the victims in this "chest thumping". Oh right, because they were the ones who suffered an 8 year invasion instead of the Chinese. This isn't a case of schadenfreude in that it is an expression of joy at the misfortune of others; it is an expression of joy at the ending of horrors inflicted on oneself. Given the nature of an invasion, the ending of horrors inflicted on the invaded obviously accompanies the misfortune of the invaders, but that does not prove that the celebrations are directed at the latter occurrence; it's just that the latter occurrence coincides with the celebrated occurrence.
I don't necessary agree here... When I was much younger, there are parades in China town in Calgary, Toronto and Hong Kong, on October 10th; or the founding date of the KMT...
I mean, we all remember seeing the PRC university students waving CCP flags fighting with Taiwanese students with the KMT flag... in San Francisco and New York.... And here we are today, so I don't think image is that affected.
solarz
Brigadier
I just discovered this CIA report from 1948:
It's a very interesting read, and I'm only at the first few pages. However, this paragraph caught my attention:
This is pretty strong evidence against some revisionist narratives that the Soviet Union was supplying the CCP with weapons.
The communists did get a lot of arms and ammunition when the Japanese surrendered in NE China, but they never received any substantial supplies from the Soviets directly.
It's a very interesting read, and I'm only at the first few pages. However, this paragraph caught my attention:
This is pretty strong evidence against some revisionist narratives that the Soviet Union was supplying the CCP with weapons.
The communists did get a lot of arms and ammunition when the Japanese surrendered in NE China, but they never received any substantial supplies from the Soviets directly.
lightspeed
Junior Member
the Nationalists due to the US arms embargo didn’t have enough weapons and ammunition to subsist its war effort in the last stages. the Communists might have captured a considerable amount of the Nationalists’ weapons but certainly not lots of ammunition. the Soviet’s archives indicated that they didn’t give the Japanese military supplies to the Chinese Communists all at once during 1945-46. they gave some Japanese and Soviet military supplies to them during 1948. the CCP ran munitions factories to support their war effort. Dairen munitions factories supplied the greater part of their munitions during the war. Su Yu mentioned the significance of Dairen artillery shells several times in his written works. Su Yu was referring to Dairen munitions factories which is 建新公司.
我曾经说过，华东的解放，特别是淮海战役的胜利，离不开山东民工的小推车和大连生产的大炮弹。
( 粟裕战争回忆录 )
the above article refers to a series of compiled works by various Dairen CCP officials during 1945-50 to reveal and celebrate the Dairen city and people’s little known but important role in the CCP’s liberation war victory. the Dairen munitions factories (建新公司) part is being highlighted and focused. it also reveals the Russians’ secret crucial cooperation with the CCP in Dairen, especially relating to the munitions factories.
imo even if the CCP produced most of their munitions for the war. the fact remains that without the Russians, the Dairen munitions factories would cease to function or struggle to maintain smooth operations let alone even realize its full potential to apparently perform such an important role in the CCP’s war victory. the various important CCP Dairen officials' memories and opinions recognized and reflected the reality of the situation then.
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solarz
Brigadier
So now you've retreated from the Soviets directly supplying the CCP with materiel and thus allowing them to win over the Nationalists, to the CCP manufacturing their munitions with the help of Russian technicians?
That's a pretty huge backtread, but read the CIA report again. It was in the CIA's opinion that the chief source of CCP materiel is from capturing Nationalist supplies. Period, full stop. There was no distinction between weapons and ammunition in that report, you are just making an unfounded speculation, and trying to pass that off as a premise.
The report actually addresses the CCP's industrial capabilities:
lightspeed
Junior Member
my position remains the same. the Soviet’s archives indicated they directly gave weapons and ammunition to the CCP in 1945-46 and 1948. the CCP denied any Soviet military aid in 1948.
the CIA might not be accurate in its reports. the Americans were basically in the dark over the CCP-Soviet cooperation in China during 1945-49. they always said they found no concrete evidences that the Soviets were supplying military material to the CCP but they wouldn’t rule it out completely. the US imposed an arms embargo on the Nationalists from 1946-1947 but the Nationalists didn’t receive any significant US military aid till January 1949 when the Huaihai campaign ended. during that period. the Nationalist suffered from a severe lack of ammunition with no means for replenishment that resulted in their defeat to the Communists.
On June 19, 1951, during congressional hearings on the loss of China, Vice-Admiral Badger testified that the U.S. arms embargo against Nationalist China led to a loss of capability and morale that resulted in their defeat by Communist Chinese forces led by Mao Tse-Tung.[3]
the chief source of CCP military supplies can’t be from capturing Nationalist supplies. take for example the artillery. the CCP’s superior artillery power was the decisive military winning factor. the CCP troops must have blasted hundred thousands of artillery shells during the three major campaigns of 1948 plus the siege of Jinan and Taiyuan. how could the Nationalists’ captured supplies solely constitute that huge source of artillery reserves ? a substantial part of their artilleries had to come from somewhere else.
do read the article in my previous post. various CCP Dairen officials said Dairen munitions factories produced 200,000 artillery shells for the Huanhai campaign. the Soviets supplied the CCP with war materials and technical assistance for the munitions factories. Su Yu’s words gave support to the importance of the Dairen munitions. this part of 1945-49 CCP Dairen history shouldn’t be ignored when understanding and evaluating the origin of the Communists' munitions source.
solarz
Brigadier
1- A 10-month arms embargo doesn't change the fact that the KMT received huge amounts of military aid from the US during the war against Japan. It doesn't change the fact that the NRA came out of WW2 4-million strong and with far better equipment than the 1.2 million communists.
2- The decisive military winning factor for the communists was not their "superior" artillery power. That is a ridiculous assertion. The communists won because they were better organized, disciplined, highly motivated, and had the popular support.
lightspeed
Junior Member
the US huge military aid to China during ww2 is a myth. General Stilwell only armed the expeditionary forces. General Wedemeyer never said he gave huge amount of military aid. the Air force received a good amount of aid. but that wasn’t really huge military or financial aid to China as a whole.
nobody would disagree or twist the fact that the KMT had a clear military advantage over the CCP after ww2. the military power balance gradually shifted in favor towards the CCP due to the complex amalgamation of many factors, i.e. the CCP's good military tactics and the KMT's deeply flawed military tactics, the US and the Soviet Union’s involvement and non-involvement, the KMT Communist military spies leaking vital intelligence to the CCP, etc.
artillery weapons were the decisive element of firepower that decided the outcome of the three major battles of 1948 in favor of the CCP and set the stage for them to take over whole of China.
solarz
Brigadier
Huge is a relative term. Maybe compared to the Soviets, the NRA was still under-equipped, but compared to the PLA, the NRA definitely had a huge advantage, both in materiel and manpower.
Where the NRA suffered was from food supplies. The communists controlled the countryside, which meant they controlled food production.
lightspeed
Junior Member
the Communist forces were reasonably well-equipped once they got hold of the Japanese military equipment. there were plenty of speculations regarding the quantity of the equipment. some said it is a considerable amount of equipment but others said it is the entire Arsenal.