Significance of the Chinese military contribution to World War 2 disputed.

solarz said:

The Eighth-Route Army was able to function effectively as fighting units with only meager equipment. Again, your statement is meaningless.

Do you think the Communism philosophy automatically gives its adherents some kind of intelligence boost? If not, why were the communists, who basically started as a bunch of peasants and academics, become so skilled in covert and propaganda warfare?

The answer is that, in the end, the communists' message appealed to people, even those who ranked high among the KMT goverment. That's why the communists were able to have informants among KMT military brass.

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which period: anti-Japanese war or the civil war ? after ww2, the Communists forces in China proper and Manchuria all boasted increased weapons supplies.

the Communists' messages truly appealed to the people. Mao Zedong gave some excellent ideas on how the CCP will uphold the democratic principles, restoration of the people’s rights, land to the peasants, representation of all voices in the government, free press, freedom of speech, etc. the democrats, intellectuals and peasants were very impressed. they believed Mao’s words and supported the CCP.

when Mao took power, the democracy’s dream became the socialist’s dream, the land reform resulted in all peasants losing their land for good, and China became a single-party state with no elections. Mao broke his promises to the people.

Chiang Kai Shek never totally purged the Communists from the KMT. some of the Communist spies were original Communists.

are you familiar with the story of Fu Zuoyi's surrender to the CCP ?

Brumby said:

In war, it is the outcome that matters. CCP was able to exploit the resources that they had more effectively. Usually it is a combination of factors but popular support was in my opinion the overriding factor. KMT lost - it is a historical fact.

Just wondering, how is this discussion related to the title of this thread?

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if the KMT government can control or reduce the hyperinflation, and the people's lives would not be so miserable. would they lose so much popular support ? I don’t think so.

lightspeed said:

if the KMT government can control or reduce the hyperinflation, and the people's lives would not be so miserable. would they lose so much popular support ? I don’t think so.

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Do I understand correctly that in your eyes the main problem was the incompetence of the KMT government and that the superior policies of the communists and the superior staff work of the communist military which made so good use of the forces they had was really of little importance?

delft said:

Do I understand correctly that in your eyes the main problem was the incompetence of the KMT government and that the superior policies of the communists and the superior staff work of the communist military which made so good use of the forces they had was really of little importance?

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i already said the Communists were very smart. they were intelligent politicians and capable military leaders who knew how to win public support and led the masses. the Communists' propaganda warfare was very skillful. the KMT's propaganda warfare was stupid. the Communists' spying network was excellent. the KMT's spying network was too inefficient.

regarding the military aspect. they made good use of the troops and made few mistakes in battles. but take note that the undercover Communist agents inside the highest levels of the KMT’s military had revealed KMT’s battle plans and vital intelligence information to the CCP which prepared and developed its battle plans using the KMT’s plans as references. if they don't have the intelligence knowledge, things would be so much harder for sure.

Zhou Enlai famously said the Communist undercover spies accelerated the CCP's victory by 10 years. the spies were really the underrated factor in the civil war.

lightspeed said:

which period: anti-Japanese war or the civil war ? after ww2, the Communists forces in China proper and Manchuria all boasted increased weapons supplies.

the Communists' messages truly appealed to the people. Mao Zedong gave some excellent ideas on how the CCP will uphold the democratic principles, restoration of the people’s rights, land to the peasants, representation of all voices in the government, free press, freedom of speech, etc. the democrats, intellectuals and peasants were very impressed. they believed Mao’s words and supported the CCP.

when Mao took power, the democracy’s dream became the socialist’s dream, the land reform resulted in all peasants losing their land for good, and China became a single-party state with no elections. Mao broke his promises to the people.

Chiang Kai Shek never totally purged the Communists from the KMT. some of the Communist spies were original Communists.

are you familiar with the story of Fu Zuoyi's surrender to the CCP ?

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You do realize that even with the GLF famines and the Cultural Revolution, the lives of the Chinese people were drastically better under the communists than under the nationalists? Life expectancy and literacy both soared, while infant mortality plunged.

You could argue that the ROC inherited a war-ravaged country, but the same could easily be said of the PRC. The difference between the KMT and the CCP is that where the Nationalists failed to unite the country and defend it against foreign threats, the CCP did both.

Where the KMT sought appeasement against the Japanese, the CCP fought against both the United States and the Soviet Union to ensure Chinese national security. Think about that for a bit. Where Jiang folded before an island nation, Mao stood against both Superpowers and held his own. The contrast is nothing short of remarkable.

lightspeed said:

you are so sensitive. you remind me of those people who schooled people for spelling and grammar mistakes in an internet forum. it's so pointless doing that.

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not sure if you realize the political motivation behind the Japanese renaming of Chinese geographic areas. Terms like Dairen, Shina are politically loaded words that wouldn't be used by anyone today unless they are nostalgic for the Japanese occupation. If your sources use Dairen in reference to Dailian, you should question their political motivation. What are your sources btw?

solarz said:

You do realize that even with the GLF famines and the Cultural Revolution, the lives of the Chinese people were drastically better under the communists than under the nationalists? Life expectancy and literacy both soared, while infant mortality plunged.

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Your argument is not logically sound. You can't compare different time periods like that. The real comparison should be Taiwan in the same time period. How does the GLF famines and CR compare with the development timeline of Taiwan during that same period. Given the choice, would you prefer the GLF + CR developement timeline under the CCP or would you prefer if ALL of China developed just like Taiwan during the same period.

solarz said:

Where the KMT sought appeasement against the Japanese, the CCP fought against both the United States and the Soviet Union to ensure Chinese national security. Think about that for a bit. Where Jiang folded before an island nation, Mao stood against both Superpowers and held his own. The contrast is nothing short of remarkable.

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Again, different time periods and different priorities. Chiang Kai-shek famously mused that the Japanese is like a skin disease where as the communists are like a heart disease. The Japanese are foreigners. China culturally assimilated multiple "foreign" invaders from the Mongols to the Manchus in the past. I have no doubt that even if Japan successfully conquored China, in 150 years Chinese wouldn't be speaking Japanese, the Japanese would be speaking Chinese. And CKS was proven right in the end. It wasn't the Japanese that caused his downfall, it was the communist.

But alas, these are all moot points and musings. That time period was a time of change. Macro social forces are acting in such a way that the incumbent government was always going to lose to a fresh new movement.

solarz said:

You do realize that even with the GLF famines and the Cultural Revolution, the lives of the Chinese people were drastically better under the communists than under the nationalists? Life expectancy and literacy both soared, while infant mortality plunged.

You could argue that the ROC inherited a war-ravaged country, but the same could easily be said of the PRC. The difference between the KMT and the CCP is that where the Nationalists failed to unite the country and defend it against foreign threats, the CCP did both.

Where the KMT sought appeasement against the Japanese, the CCP fought against both the United States and the Soviet Union to ensure Chinese national security. Think about that for a bit. Where Jiang folded before an island nation, Mao stood against both Superpowers and held his own. The contrast is nothing short of remarkable.

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we weren’t comparing whether Nationalist or Communist China was better. you said the Communist's messages appealed to the people. i pointed out the false promises behind the messages. they deceived the people to win power.

you don’t know the US huge lend-lease aid to China, especially the military aid was greatly exaggerated. you ignored the CCP-Soviet secret cooperation even though I already gave one conclusive evidence in the Dairen war factories, and the source was the CCP Dairen officials’ memoirs. you ignored that completely. we discussed the CCP’s role in the anti-Japanese war sometimes ago. 1.2 million Communist troops at the end of ww2 ? show me the list of the units.

fact for fact. let’s straighten it out. no sidetracking.

imo you just can’t understand or choose to ignore the almost insuperable problems faced by the KMT government which ruled over an almost impossible to govern China then.

lightspeed said:

we weren’t comparing whether Nationalist or Communist China was better. you said the Communist's messages appealed to the people. i pointed out the false promises behind the messages. they deceived the people to win power.

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Your statement implies that the people are generally gullible and easily persuaded by propaganda. KMT was in power long before CCP came along as a viable alternative. The problem I believe is that KMT lost the plot in the governing process through a combination of incompetence and more importantly wide spread corruption. When CCP came along regardless of whether empty promises were being made, it had appeal to the people because the people were sick of the status quo. Governments get change typically not because the opposition is better but the people just want to get rid of the existing one.

The history with China and the fall of dynasties can be traced to corruption which the people term as having lost the mandate of heaven. Likewise, CCP today will have to deal seriously with corruption because you can only go so far with an empty tank. As it is often said "the only thing we learn from history is not from history".

Brumby said:

Your statement implies that the people are generally gullible and easily persuaded by propaganda. KMT was in power long before CCP came along as a viable alternative. The problem I believe is that KMT lost the plot in the governing process through a combination of incompetence and more importantly wide spread corruption. When CCP came along regardless of whether empty promises were being made, it had appeal to the people because the people were sick of the status quo. Governments get change typically not because the opposition is better but the people just want to get rid of the existing one.

The history with China and the fall of dynasties can be traced to corruption which the people term as having lost the mandate of heaven. Likewise, CCP today will have to deal seriously with corruption because you can only go so far with an empty tank. As it is often said "the only thing we learn from history is not from history".

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people are always deceived by skillful propaganda, even in today’s world when there is an extensive range of information available.

the ordinary peasant and worker knew nothing or can’t understand Sun Yat-Sen’s San-min Doctrine or Mao Zedong’s China version of Marxism Leninism or New Democracy pre-1949. majority of the people were uneducated and illiterate. they can’t read the papers to know what was happening in China. the peasants lived and worked in the rural countrysides, cut off from rest of civilization. they were deprived of news. there was a total lack of information to inform and educate him. he was gullible and would be easily misled by skillful propaganda. that is one key reason why the KMT government delayed giving the people the votes and continued the political tutelage period. the KMT worked toward making the conditions right first till the people can be relied on to make the right choices for themselves.