Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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Engineer

Major
Way more advanced in what way? China has adopted the strategy of build something semi-stealthy now and add improvements as they gain the experience. Its a incremental strategy for the long haul and is the way most Chinese programs proceed. China would rather build an aircraft that is 60% stealthy and get that in the air today rather than go whole hog like the US has done with F-22 and F-35 and wait decades working out on the bleeding edge.
There is no evidence to backup your claim that J-20 is only 60% as stealthy as F-22 or F-35.

All you have to do is look at the rear quarters of J-20 and J-31 to see that China will settle for a compromise today to get something flying and let tomorrow take care of itself.
The tail end of the J-20 is perfectly fine, given F-35 has a similar tail end with an axis-symmetric nozzle.

To look at J-20 and J-31 and not understand the role materials and coatings play in providing a complete stealth solution means that you do not understand stealth.

Coatings play as big a role as shaping in stealth and to date China appears to be lagging in that area. Coatings and maintaining those coatings have come a long way from first generation stealth like F-117 and B-2.

In these photos here the J-20's panels are clearly visible suggesting no RAM has been applied to the aircraft
The fact that the aircraft is black would be a good indication that RAM is already been employed.
 

Engineer

Major
And you know this how?

So far, you haven't provided an ounce of evidence to prove that China isn't capable of manufacturing composite materials. On the other hand, we have photographic evidence of China's extensively employing composite materials on production fighter, evidence like the picture below:
OdxB5.jpg
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
Guys, the ignore list is there for a reason. If they are on most members' list they'd simply go troll elsewhere!
 

Engineer

Major
Doing research and producing a usable product are two different things. I respectfully point out that China as been researching advanced jet engines for over a decade and yet flew J-20 with less advanced engines. When you review China's progress you see this:

"....China’s inability to domestically mass-produce modern high-performance jet engines at a consistently high-quality standard is an enduring Achilles heel of the Chinese military aerospace sector and is likely a headwind that has slowed development and production of the J-15, J-20, and other late-generation tactical aircraft...."

–However, evidence still suggests that AVIC’s engine makers are having trouble maintaining consistent quality control as they scale up production of the WS-10, causing problems with reliability and keeping China’s tactical aircraft heavily reliant on imported Russian engines.

–Key weak points of the Chinese military jet engine industry include: turbine blade production and process standardization..."

WS-10A is already in serial production and being widely employed on newly built Chinese Flanker derivatives. The fact that the engine is in production shows quality and reliability issues have already been solved. Furthermore, newly built Chinese Flankers are using WS-10A is a clear indication that China is no longer relying on Russian engines.

The statements you quoted above a few years out of date.

These difficulties just point out how hard it is to make a superior stealth aircraft that excels in all aspects for anybody. That includes China.
Again, please define "anybody". Does your use of the word only encompasses US, China and Russia, or does the word also include countries such as Japan, Korea, and India? Only three countries are able to put a stealth fighter into the air shows not anybody can build a stealth aircraft.

F-35 is super advanced. Just look at the problems and bugs the US has to iron out to get to a superior airplane.
The F-35 encountering enormous problems is not an indication of the aircraft being super advanced. Rather, it is an indication of that plane being super unreliable. The cause of the problems has to do with the F-35 being overloaded with conflicting requirements. There is no indication that China is following such an unrealistic approach to aircraft design.

Why would China's first attempt at stealth be any easier?
Design and building a stealth aircraft isn't easy, but the fact China has two J-20 prototypes in the air with one more coming shows it is well within China's ability to design a stealth aircraft.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
And you know this how?
Your question doesn't make sense in reference to my response. I didn't assert any claim of knowing something. I was pointing out the lack of a logical link between your evidence and your claim. Even if we are to assume that China has trouble with scaling up the manufacturing of advanced composites at quality levels, a story about some guy trying to ship 2 tons of carbon fiber back to China has utterly no bearing on whether China lacks or has that ability. 2 tons of most any material does nothing for scaling of long term production processes.

If you're trying to argue that China needs/intends to import all their military/aerospace grade materials from abroad then citing a story about how much high quality composites China buys abroad for aerospace purposes would be better evidence. However, the sale of that stuff is regulated and off limits for China. You could make the claim that China will try to steal/illegally import all the composites they will need for the mass production, but at face value it is an absurd one given the scale of theft/illegal activity that that would have to entail.

That said, questioning whether they will have the capability to manufacture the materials they need at the scale they need them goes back to the assumption that the Chinese and the PLA don't know what they're doing and are just building fancy prototypes for show. It assumes that they're pursuing these ambitious projects with no hard knowledge or plan of how to get to their intended goals. You can assume that if you want (and a lot of these let's doubt China's capabilities articles do seem to assume this), but I think it's important to remember that China and the PLA are not goofy cartoon characters. They are a serious organization and military power, which have had a history of being conservative about their capabilities as well as a history of largely reaching their target goals and delivering on their promises. We are not talking about an Iran or North Korea here. This is a country that has the resources and expertise to do what they say.

Everything aside, we do know China has the ability to manufacture aerospace grade composites because they have partnerships to do just that with both Boeing and Airbus, and if we are to believe what we hear (and see, since you can get an idea of what materials are used on unpainted prototype aircraft), they have been using composites on both the J-10B and J-11B.
 
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NikeX

Banned Idiot
First of all, what evidence do you have China is lacking coating technology? We all know this is top secret, that means no one knows how does Chinese coating technology is, and at the same time no one knows US coating technology as well. If we don't know any of it, how can you make a comparison?

I knew you would ask something like that so I posted those pictures for you to review. Notice the panel lines? Prominent panels like that are the hallmark of a plane with no RAM applied. Compare those J-20 pictures to the F-117 pictures

The F-117 was nearly completely covered with a radar absorbing material which is laborious and expensive to maintain. After each mission, maintenance specialists closely examine the aircraft's special coating to identify any needed repairs. If required, coatings were reapplied, allowed to cure, and re-inspected.

The coatings are a major part of stealth. Note the smoothness. Does this advance your understanding of stealth

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latenlazy

Brigadier
I knew you would ask something like that so I posted those pictures for you to review. Notice the panel lines? Prominent panels like that are the hallmark of a plane with no RAM applied. Compare those J-20 pictures to the F-117 pictures

The F-117 was nearly completely covered with a radar absorbing material which is laborious and expensive to maintain. After each mission, maintenance specialists closely examine the aircraft's special coating to identify any needed repairs. If required, coatings were reapplied, allowed to cure, and re-inspected.

The coatings are a major part of stealth. Note the smoothness. Does this advance your understanding of stealth

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I personally don't subscribe to the idea that the J-20 prototypes have RAM on it, simply because it wouldn't make sense from a cost perspective to apply coating on an air frame meant for aerodynamic tests. That said, just because they don't have ram coating applied does not mean they don't know have radar absorbent materials/don't know how to make their own RAM.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
There is no evidence to backup your claim that J-20 is only 60% as stealthy as F-22 or F-35.


The tail end of the J-20 is perfectly fine, given F-35 has a similar tail end with an axis-symmetric nozzle.

Compare the F-35 to J-20? Notice the difference? Notice the serrated edges?

F-35
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J-20
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The fact that the aircraft is black would be a good indication that RAM is already been employed.

The fact that you can see panel lines says otherwise. Be more observant.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
I personally don't subscribe to the idea that the J-20 prototypes have RAM on it, simply because it wouldn't make sense from a cost perspective to apply coating on an air frame meant for aerodynamic tests. That said, just because they don't have ram coating applied does not mean they don't know have radar absorbent materials/don't know how to make their own RAM.

I agree. The RAM coatings can come later. Right now it is more important for the Chinese to get something in the air and make improvements as they gain experience
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Again, please define "anybody". Does your use of the word only encompasses US, China and Russia, or does the word also include countries such as Japan, Korea, and India? Only three countries are able to put a stealth fighter into the air shows not anybody can build a stealth aircraft.

The word'anybody' is all inclusive


The F-35 encountering enormous problems is not an indication of the aircraft being super advanced. Rather, it is an indication of that plane being super unreliable. The cause of the problems has to do with the F-35 being overloaded with conflicting requirements. There is no indication that China is following such an unrealistic approach to aircraft design.

China follows an incremental developmental approach. America goes all out and reaches for the sky


Design and building a stealth aircraft isn't easy, but the fact China has two J-20 prototypes in the air with one more coming shows it is well within China's ability to design a stealth aircraft.

It means that they can design an airframe. The total package is coming later
 
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