Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

latenlazy said:

The article hardly substantiates the claim. How does some guy trying to steal material demonstrate that China can't mass produce that same material when we already know they can produce it?

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First, the guy wasn't trying to steal. He was just trying to export something without proper approval. Secondly, just because the item is restricted, that doesn't mean China has no capability in making it. It is increasing the case that China could produce something better than the restricted items.

To give you one example, US banned the sale of vibration platforms above certain weight class to China. These platforms are used in the aerospace sector such as vibration and shock testing of satellites. The hilarious thing is that China exported bigger and better vibration platforms to the US. This reflects just how outdated some of those restrictions can be. is the source.

Engineer said:

First, they guy wasn't trying to steal. He was just trying to export something without proper approval. Secondly, just because the item is restricted, that doesn't mean China has no capability in making it. It is increasing the case that China could produce something better than the restricted items.

To give you one example, US banned the sale of vibration platforms above certain weight class to China. These platforms are used in the aerospace sector such as vibration and shock testing of satellites. The hilarious thing is that China exported bigger and better vibration platforms to the US. This reflects just how outdated some of those restrictions can be.

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Didn't really care for the details in the article. NikeX made a claim and tied it to "evidence" that hardly back it.

MiG-29 said:

the point of the article is the guy tried to exported the materials and now is arrested, simple like thaty the rest debatable

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Uh. But the point of NikeX's post was to say that article indicated China couldn't mass produce aerospace grade composites. Hence why evidence does not follow claim.

latenlazy said:

Didn't really care for the details in the article. NikeX made a claim and tied it to "evidence" that hardly back it.


Uh. But the point of NikeX's post was to say that article indicated China couldn't mass produce aerospace grade composites. Hence why evidence does not follow claim.

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not all the materials are the same, for the americans that material is going to go to China, then the guy is stop and arrested, if China can or can not make it i do not know, for the americans they won`t help, specially after the F-35 files were stolen

MiG-29 said:

not all the materials are the same, for the americans that material is going to go to China, then the guy is stop and arrested, if China can or can not make it i do not know, for the americans they won`t help, specially after the F-35 files were stolen

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Once again, you missed the point.

I love the logic.

Before the J-20, the stealth fighter was only capable of the few masters. Because of the J-20, now anyone can make one but it's the second or the third or the fourth or (insert number of stealth fighters the people you have a problem have and add plus one) that is the hardest. Also notice all the stories now of the end of stealth? Now it's all about the 6th generation until China produces one then it'll be about the seventh generation, and so on and so on... Notice the pattern? But let's go back to the basic fact that if Chinese stealth technology is inferior, why would they be moving on to the next generation when this generation is enough? It's called desperate to go anywhere aka panic.

latenlazy said:

Once again, you missed the point.

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One year later and we're still paying attention to Mig-29...

jackliu said:

So, they can produce J-20 which is way more advanced, but when it come to F-60 they have to steal? what I am more curious is that, aren't you getting tired of being proved wrong over and over again?

Do you serious think they can only produce prototypes after all that you have seem? I mean, I really hate to be you. You want them to fail SOOO much, but time again and again you have been proven wrong over and over again, it must burns you up inside.

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Way more advanced in what way? China has adopted the strategy of build something semi-stealthy now and add improvements as they gain the experience. Its a incremental strategy for the long haul and is the way most Chinese programs proceed. China would rather build an aircraft that is 60% stealthy and get that in the air today rather than go whole hog like the US has done with F-22 and F-35 and wait decades working out on the bleeding edge.

All you have to do is look at the rear quarters of J-20 and J-31 to see that China will settle for a compromise today to get something flying and let tomorrow take care of itself.

To look at J-20 and J-31 and not understand the role materials and coatings play in providing a complete stealth solution means that you do not understand stealth.

Coatings play as big a role as shaping in stealth and to date China appears to be lagging in that area. Coatings and maintaining those coatings have come a long way from first generation stealth like F-117 and B-2.

In these photos here the J-20's panels are clearly visible suggesting no RAM has been applied to the aircraft

latenlazy said:

The article hardly substantiates the claim. How does some guy trying to steal material demonstrate that China can't mass produce that same material when we already know they can produce it?

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And you know this how?

Quickie said:

The thing is, China has long been doing their own research on composite material and has been manufacturing and using them on their fighter jets for years.

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Doing research and producing a usable product are two different things. I respectfully point out that China as been researching advanced jet engines for over a decade and yet flew J-20 with less advanced engines. When you review China's progress you see this:

"....China’s inability to domestically mass-produce modern high-performance jet engines at a consistently high-quality standard is an enduring Achilles heel of the Chinese military aerospace sector and is likely a headwind that has slowed development and production of the J-15, J-20, and other late-generation tactical aircraft...."

–However, evidence still suggests that AVIC’s engine makers are having trouble maintaining consistent quality control as they scale up production of the WS-10, causing problems with reliability and keeping China’s tactical aircraft heavily reliant on imported Russian engines.

–Key weak points of the Chinese military jet engine industry include: turbine blade production and process standardization..."

These difficulties just point out how hard it is to make a superior stealth aircraft that excels in all aspects for anybody. That includes China.

F-35 is super advanced. Just look at the problems and bugs the US has to iron out to get to a superior airplane.

Why would China's first attempt at stealth be any easier?

NikeX said:

Way more advanced in what way? China has adopted the strategy of build something semi-stealthy now and add improvements as they gain the experience. Its a incremental strategy for the long haul and is the way most Chinese programs proceed. China would rather build an aircraft that is 60% stealthy and get that in the air today rather than go whole hog like the US has done with F-22 and F-35 and wait decades working out on the bleeding edge.

All you have to do is look at the rear quarters of J-20 and J-31 to see that China will settle for a compromise today to get something flying and let tomorrow take care of itself.

To look at J-20 and J-31 and not understand the role materials and coatings play in providing a complete stealth solution means that you do not understand stealth.

Coatings play as big a role as shaping in stealth and to date China appears to be lagging in that area. Coatings and maintaining those coatings have come a long way from first generation stealth like F-117 and B-2.

In these photos here the J-20's panels are clearly visible suggesting no RAM has been applied to the aircraft

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First of all, what evidence do you have China is lacking coating technology? We all know this is top secret, that means no one knows how does Chinese coating technology is, and at the same time no one knows US coating technology as well. If we don't know any of it, how can you make a comparison?

Or is that in your mind that China automatically = inferior, because they are Chinese?

Secondly for the engine, do you think it is a good idea that everything else is ahead, but engine is lacking behind, therefore they should wait 5 more years until the engine is fully mature then develop the jet? Or isn't it smarter to get the jet flying, mature all other subsystems while developing the engine at same time?

Then by this logic the why does the YF-22 looks SO much more different than F-22? Or why does the X-35 look so much more different than F-35? I mean by this logic American should make sure that the very first prototype should have everything ready right away?

Do you care for the Chinese people so much that in your infinite wisdom you want them to save some money? You NikeX, a forum warrior knows the best than the whole Chinese military jet industrial complex?

Lastly, where did you get 60%? Did you pull it out of somewhere the sun does not shine?