Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, but who said China should replace one with the other? That is exactly what I have been arguing against.


Again, my argument is China is NOT replacing anyone.


Huh, that is the foundational contradiction? I think that is the thing you kept avoiding answering.


Before answering why "either/or"/"replacement" is the only way China should do, there is no meaning in further debate.
Obviously China will develop all alternatives sources of oil. The original post was in response to a hypothetical Iran Saudi war.

Why do you want me to talk for other countries then? I would appreciate if you paid attention to the context of the convo

If you are talking in general yes, China needs to develop Russian, Iranian, African, Latin American, Central Asian energy resources. But in the context of a Iran Saudi war, unless all these developments lead to those producers replacing Saudi Arabia's role in supplying China, China would face a catastrophic economic blow.

I find your disregard of China's energy security completely bizarre. I presume you understand what would happen to China's economy if a Saudi Arabia - Iran war happened today or in 5 years or in even 10 years
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
There seems to be some fundamental misreadings on the dynamics of Middle East geopolitics and the goal of China’s ME foreign policy that I feel like it’s necessary to clear the air. A decision by China to disproportionately favour the GCC over Iran and alienate the latter partnership would be, to put it frankly, catastrophic for Chinese foreign policy objectives in the Middle East.

The Iran-China Relationship
It’s important to keep in mind that the heart of contemporary Chinese foreign policy is the promotion of the BRI and the fundamental core impetus of the BRI is not economic development but national security. China’s maritime east, its main route of access to the rest of the world, is under perennial threat of blockade from adversarial activation of the first island chain. This is the background under which the OBOR was uncoincidentally formulated shortly after the announcement of the Obama-era "Pivot to Asia,” because the land route networks that the BRI would establish from Xinjiang and Tibet into Eurasia would ensure China’s immunity from the impact of such a containment scenario. Although there is a “Maritime Silk Road” where the GCC can play a peace-time role through being an intermediary for shipping from the CPEC corridor and acting as crude oil supplier in return, it does not address the security concerns underpinning the BRI project and would only move a maritime blockade from the waters of the SCS and the Strait of Malacca to the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf.

There are therefore two principal land routes, from Central Asia southwards to Iran and northwards to Russia. Ensuring the stability and cooperation of Central Asia to diversify access routes is therefore crucial, as elsewise, China’s Eurasia routes would be entirely dependent on Russia and at the mercy of volatile Russian leadership attitudes. Establishing an Iranian route, which was the traditional transitory path of the historical Silk Road to the West, gives China the same leverage we see right now in the Russo-Iranian competition for China’s oil import market. Furthermore, the optimal path to keeping Central Asia secure means requiring the partnership of Iran. With Iran, Pakistan and Russia on board, this China-partnered bloc would win the so-called “Great Game” over Central Asia that foreign powers like Britain, the Russian Empire and the United States have been unsuccessfully competing for since the 19th century.

Keeping Iran on board is also necessary to check Turkish and Indian influences on Central Asia, which can both be contiguously blocked from the region with Iranian cooperation. The former under the Erdogan government is a irredentist power whose historically unattainable ethno-nationalist fantasies of Turkism are now a real threat through being co-opted as the vehicle for NATO and American re-entry into Central Asia and infiltrating Xinjiang after their loss of Afghanistan. The latter would be deprived into an outsider looking in position with respect to Central Asia so long as Iran and Russia cooperate with China and Pakistan in keeping it out. This also prevents the latter from "its have your cake and eat it too" attitude of expecting to fully reaping the benefits of accessing those BRI-developed regions despite its own non-participation in BRI and its hostility towards China.

The feasibility of this Central Asian grand strategy can only be made manifest from the cooperation of the state holding Iran’s geographic position and that geographic position alone is frankly all that China really needs out of its bilateral partnership with Iran. Therefore, so long as a Sino-Iranian relationship can sufficiently secure these stated regional security concerns, in the long-term its value to China will actually be more fundamentally important than anything the GCC could provide in the current geopolitical environment, even if Iranian cooperation is a complete wash in other areas like bilateral economic ties.

The GCC-China Relationship
I think the excessive focus and cheery optimism on potential Chinese benefits of the developing GCC relationship, such as the elusive Petroyuan, have made some forget why the Saudis chose to roll out their blue carpet, fire off their 21-gun salute and have their royals greeting Xi like kin in the first place: because, from a geopolitical perspective, the Saudis (and the GCC) have gained something massive from this summit, which is that an invitation of China acts as a guaranteed catalyst for triggering the “Solomon Islands” response from the West. The lackluster state of their relationship with America following the latter’s Asian pivot has coincided with the current US Democratic administration marginalisation of its Middle East allies through its ‘axis of democracy’ diplomatic narrative. Introducing China into the picture recontextualises the ME from the apparent American notion that their withdrawal means the region will simply sink into irrelevance with little geopolitical value, which has led it to so publicly attack its GCC partners like Saudi Arabia. Approaching China therefore reactivates Western interests by exploiting their Cold War “dominos” mentality and this is made obvious by how the entire Western bloc has immediately lined up to reengage the region like clockwork after China’s Dec 7-10 summit.

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The use of China as a "rebound partner" and as leverage for countries to renegotiate their relationship with the West is often indirectly beneficial to China but it also leads to instances of China being pulled by the nose by “two-faced" leaders using the tactic and then dumping China afterwards without any means of Chinese recourse. This is most evident in its Philippines relationship, where the two Dutertes have continually played the China card, starting with the previous one’s hyped up threat to the US to cancel their Visiting Forces Agreement, which ended up as a big nothing burger episode that merely served to induce American concessions towards furthering their bilaterial relationship. Securing an Iran relationship introduces a means for China to reduce the GCC incentive from expressing such a similar degree of duplicitous insincerity and riding roughshod over China with diplomatic impunity. This is as the threat of alienating China and allowing Iran to gain its full backing would be costly for the GCC’s security concerns (aka the "Ukraine dilemma"). In parallel, securing a GCC relationship bolsters the Iranian impetus to maintain its own China ties through similar concerns of its own.
Excellent write-up. Focusing at oil as the primary objective @Overbom would be missing the forest for the trees
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I find your disregard of China's energy security completely bizarre. I presume you understand what would happen to China's economy if a Saudi Arabia - Iran war happened today or in 5 years or in even 10 years
I have covered the rest but find the last paragraph bizzare. Show me where did I ever expressed a desire or indifference about hypothetical SA-Iran conflict? How could "not choosing one friend over another" being disregard of energy security? All I have been saying is China not taking one side against another.

On the contrary, advocating China taking a preferential side of SA is threatening not only China's energy security, but also OBOR land route as post #541 has explained.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Excellent write-up. Focusing at oil as the primary objective @Overbom would be missing the forest for the trees
Yes, Saudi Arabia disappearing overnight as an oil supplier to China is me "missing the forest for the trees"

Xi is also missing the forest for the trees I guess, you should let him know that Saudi Arabia's oil suddenly becoming due to war would be a nothing-burger lol
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China will continue to firmly support the GCC countries in maintaining their own security... and build a collective security framework for the Gulf," Xi said on Friday at the start of the China-GCC summit.
"China will continue to import large quantities of crude oil from GCC countries on an ongoing basis," he said, also vowing to expand other areas of energy cooperation, including liquefied natural gas imports.
 

taxiya

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Registered Member
Yes, Saudi Arabia disappearing overnight as an oil supplier to China is me "missing the forest for the trees"
You are apparently avoiding the question of Iranian oil disappearance, aren't you?
Xi is also missing the forest for the trees I guess, you should let him know that Saudi Arabia's oil suddenly becoming due to war would be a nothing-burger lol
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Seriously, Xi is not God, but for you to call him and the whole Chinese strategic circle missing the forest? I am really shocked by your "confidence".

No, I have nothing to tell Xi because he is doing what I expect any leader be doing, but I can tell you to forget about playing the "divide and conquer" trick.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Show me where did I ever expressed a desire or indifference about hypothetical SA-Iran conflict? How could "not choosing one friend over another" being disregard of energy security? All I have been saying is China not taking one side against another.
My original post was a response to a Saudi Arabia Iran war claim in another post.

So to be clear, If today, Saudi Arabia and Iran went to war, and Iran bombed to Saudi Arabia's oil infrastructure to smithereens, you would think that China would say no biggie and stay neutral while fully knowing that it would devastate China's economy and setting it back decades in its competition with the US?

Answer me this so I can stop any farther back forth with you because our positions might be fundamentally different on how important we perceive oil to be in an economy. My position is that in the event of such a war, China would be economically dead for at least a decade while the US happily continues fracking.

IMO such damage would be Great Power competition ending for China. That's how much importance I place on this. In front of an economic life and death issue, remaining neutral goes out of the window. You have to go against the one killing you indirectly otherwise you are going to economically die
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Seriously, Xi is not God, but for you to call him and the whole Chinese strategic circle missing the forest? I am really shocked by your "confidence".
What are you even writing here? You said oil is not that important. I link you to an article where Xi is reported to had said that Gulf's oil is actually important for China (and will keep importing it)

So now you are moving goalposts saying I said Xi is missing the forest when me linking to what the said directly contradicts your claim about oil security. Bad faith argument
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
My original post was a response to a Saudi Arabia Iran war claim in another post.
Ok, so there is a mixing up on your part. Then I won't continue the debate as both me and Xi Jinping is missing the forest. ;) I am simply unable to catch up with your thought.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
What are you even writing here? You said oil is not that important. I link you to an article where Xi is reported to had said that Gulf's oil is actually important for China (and will keep importing it)

So now you are moving goalposts saying I said Xi is missing the forest when me linking to what the said directly contradicts your claim about oil security. Bad faith argument
Xi is soon to receive the Iranian president, so he certainly did not miss the forest. You missed this event, didn't you?
 
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