Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
EU is born out of economic needs. It overstep its role by political interference. When the economic benefit cease, it will collapse. Because then it provides no benefit, only drawback of losing soverignty.
In reality the EU has not benefited the economy of most of the EU. Only Germany (and Netherlands) is really benefited by it.

For Mediterranean countries entering the EU was a disaster that demolished our industries for forever.

You are right that the promise was the theoretical economical benefit, but when you check hard numbers you can see the issues.
For example Spain real wages are the same in 2023 that they were in 2000. But cost of living basically doubled.

Spain had a pretty decent naval industry in the 80s, due to EU it was 90% demolished. Now only some military stuff is manufactured there. Same with metallurgy, car industries and other things.

For Greece the disaster was even bigger

EU purpose was always to provide a big close market for German (as US vassal) industry. EU is a very closed market and product from outside EU has big tariffs and quotas. Production of EU members is also regulated by quotas.

Also all countries in EU suffered a big workforce migration to the north, contributing to this (I am southern european and I have work during years in different countries in the north). This contributes even more to decline of the south.

Anyway, this is the past. Currently it will be very hard that the EU will collapse without foreign interference.
One, any country want to split will suffer big commercial pressure by the rest of the EU and US.
Two, those countries are non functional countries anymore. They lack basic industries for independence
Three, institutions are too integrated with the EU. And in the case of the army with NATO. There is no real way out without a big revolution.
Four, still functional countries like Germany or France also has no incentive to leave. Germany leaves the EU and what happens? That they their cars lost the protection EU is giving them, and taking into consideration how few competitive they are against china they dont sell nothing. Their industry collapses. Even now the Chinese cars are tremendously growing in the EU

I personally think that the EU will fall at some point, but it will not be that easy. Its elites and the US elites will fight hard to maintain it. (EU is a creation of the US, sometimes US put it down like it put down Japan, but it is not interested in EU falling).

How can EU fall? Well, if Russia win the war on Ukraine and manage to either conquer until the border with Hungary either to install a friendly regime.
Across Ukraine and Russia Hungary could access China. That could be more beneficial for it, and at some point could leave the EU. Austria could come with it if is in its interest.
Serbia through the frontier with Hungary.

With Russia dominating Ukraine Bulgary and some others would chance to Eurassia step by step.

Sadly my own country, Spain is in totally the other side of Europe. So we will be the last of integrate with Eurasia.

A lot of this is conditional.

First condition is that China is able to overcome all sanctions and develop their semiconductor industry to the same level than the West. I believe China will do it in around 5 years

Second condition is that China or Russia are able to develop their independent aircraft industry to the same level than the West.
Here I am more negative. I think the path of China in aircraft industry is wrong, it relies to much in Western supply chain. Path of Russia (after their problems with the SuperJet) is better, and the MC21 is a good alternative to Airbus/Boeing. But they will not be able to provide it in the mass numbers needed, at least in short term.

Third condition, this is gray in the moment. Russia should win the ukranian war in an absolute manner and without any compromise. This will mean to add unify whithin itself all the old "Novarussia" so basically Odessa, Kharkov, Nikolaiev and so on. The black sea cost.
And at the same time to reach the frontier with Hungary.
The third condition is key because it would mean that Russia control the Danube end, on the one hand, and have land corridor with Hungary Serbia in other.
This put tremendous pressure in the EU control of the Balkans, also efectively finish the EU expansion in the Caucasus.

If Russia does not win in Ukraine EU will simply impose bigger and bigger tariffs in chinese products, with the help of Ukraine will continue blackmailing with a blocade countries like Hungary and Serbia and at some point it will manage its problems and remain there. UE bureocrats have more power each year, and each year is more difficult for national parlaments to take any decision.
Population here will suffer, and level of life is really falling. I have friends in Spain, and Germany. I know situation there, things are really going down.

But at some point the EU will manage its problems and remain united, although poorer.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Second condition is that China or Russia are able to develop their independent aircraft industry to the same level than the West.
Here I am more negative. I think the path of China in aircraft industry is wrong, it relies to much in Western supply chain. Path of Russia (after their problems with the SuperJet) is better, and the MC21 is a good alternative to Airbus/Boeing. But they will not be able to provide it in the mass numbers needed, at least in short term.
You haven't been properly informed. There is a plan to increase the amount of Chinese content in COMAC planes. For example the CJ-1000 engine is being developed for the C919, the CJ-2000 engine for the C929, and the CJ-500 engine for the ARJ-21.

In a lot of cases the "imported" components in C919 are actually built in China by joint ventures of Chinese companies with Western companies. For example the landing gear for ARJ-21 and C919 was designed by Liebherr. But the gears are assembled in China.
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The plan for COMAC seems pretty similar to the way China handled the high-speed rail tech transfer. Near the end of this decade you will see much more localized airplanes being manufactured. And next decade there will likely be few if any imported components left.
 
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Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
You haven't been properly informed. There is a plan to increase the amount of Chinese content in COMAC planes. For example the CJ-1000 engine is being developed for the C919, the CJ-2000 engine for the C929, and the CJ-500 engine for the ARJ-21. In a lot of cases the "imported" components in C919 are actually built in China by joint ventures of Chinese companies with Western companies.
The plan for COMAC seems pretty similar to the way China handled the high-speed rail tech transfer. Near the end of this decade you will see much more localized airplanes being manufactured. And next decade there will likely be few if any imported components left.
The problem with joint ventures is that they always rely in certain components manufactured in UK, France or US. If sanctions are imposed and those components are stopped the joint venture is unable to do anything.
This is what happened with the russian superjet and a joint venture they have with Safran.

The bet China is taking is that no sanctions will be imposed in the short/medium term, but this is a bet. Aeronautics is more strategic than high speed railway so western leaders will try to blackmail with it sooner or later

Anyway, even with your schedule you can see that it will take 2 decades to have fully interdependent Chinese planes. It is similar problem than with Russian MC21. Next decade Russia has independent planes but will build planes only for itself. China will build planes that have western components. None of them are able to provide 3rd countries with planes.

And this will be part for sure of UE blackmail against any state trying to leave the EU and achieve higher integration with China
 

sunnymaxi

Captain
Registered Member
Anyway, even with your schedule you can see that it will take 2 decades to have fully interdependent Chinese planes.
who told you ? it will take 2 decades.

by the end of this decade, C919 will be fully independent from western parts. include all core components like Engines. and its already manufactured 60 percent components/parts in mainland. even though Joint ventures but mostly critical components sourced from local manufacturer.. COMAC is very actively working on localization since 2020 when US threated to cut off engine supply for the first time.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I think it’s reasonable to be cautious about China aerospace program. There is good chance that airlines themselves will not pick domestic engine or other suppliers until forced to do so when a sanction kicks in.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think it’s reasonable to be cautious about China aerospace program. There is good chance that airlines themselves will not pick domestic engine or other suppliers until forced to do so when a sanction kicks in.
The Central Government will just order them to pick the Chinese engine if necessary. Basically all the Chinese airlines are state owned anyway.
 

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Central Government will just order them to pick the Chinese engine if necessary. Basically all the Chinese airlines are state owned anyway.
Sometimes even state owned can make opposition a little if they are directed by some “Bene guys.

For example Aeroflot in Russia was state owned and still they were preferring Airbus than Russian planes.

I think I remember Putin to remind it to the Aeroflot CEO after the later complain for the lack of state help after sanctions.

But I also think that times have changed and probably Chinese government will push a bit in this regard
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
The problem with joint ventures is that they always rely in certain components manufactured in UK, France or US. If sanctions are imposed and those components are stopped the joint venture is unable to do anything.
This is what happened with the russian superjet and a joint venture they have with Safran.

The bet China is taking is that no sanctions will be imposed in the short/medium term, but this is a bet. Aeronautics is more strategic than high speed railway so western leaders will try to blackmail with it sooner or later

Anyway, even with your schedule you can see that it will take 2 decades to have fully interdependent Chinese planes. It is similar problem than with Russian MC21. Next decade Russia has independent planes but will build planes only for itself. China will build planes that have western components. None of them are able to provide 3rd countries with planes.

And this will be part for sure of UE blackmail against any state trying to leave the EU and achieve higher integration with China
This is discussed in c919 thread that western products used are mostly made in China. It is impossible to pull out by force. One it is illegal. 2nd if they insist despite illegal, then state can seize the asset and keep working. GE engine is not, but that one should be sanction proof. Would be dumb to void contract when cj1000 coming 1 year later.
 
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