Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

_killuminati_

Senior Member
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Except, it's pretty clear that the US wants to get out of the ME and that the US can't even protect itself now (there's been like 100 attacks on US bases in ME since oct 7, by Iran and its proxies).

And as it stands, China can help facilitate discussion and brokering between powers (Iran and Saudi), and the economic part, Saudi is very much tying themselves to China.

So China's importance to Saudi is very high, not sure if greater than US right now, but in the future, it's assured to be.
USA appears to be suffering from some war fatigue (although that's questionable considering it's only known 11 years of peace in its 247 years of history), and it's forces are spread thin. I don't believe it wants to exit the middleast, unless it involves stable puppet regimes or severely weakened enemies.

Saudi aligning itself with China isn't surprising. Most of the world, including American academics, know that the American empire is in irreversible decline. Hence, to safeguard their own long term interests, countries are slowly moving away from the US. China just happens to be rising simultaneously, an apparent safe alternative to the US.

The only reason why I believe US hasn't toppled MBS is because he is cozying up with Israel which has been a longstanding goal of USA: to legitimize Israel amongst the Arabs. So, if KSA ditches USA but accepts Israel, then the American goal is established because Israel is just an extension of the US; the only nuclear power in the region, who can exert American influence with impunity (see Palestine genocides for reference). The entire development is nothing more than a sleight of hand.
 

Michaelsinodef

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USA appears to be suffering from some war fatigue (although that's questionable considering it's only known 11 years of peace in its 247 years of history), and it's forces are spread thin. I don't believe it wants to exit the middleast, unless it involves stable puppet regimes or severely weakened enemies.

Saudi aligning itself with China isn't surprising. Most of the world, including American academics, know that the American empire is in irreversible decline. Hence, to safeguard their own long term interests, countries are slowly moving away from the US. China just happens to be rising simultaneously, an apparent safe alternative to the US.

The only reason why I believe US hasn't toppled MBS is because he is cozying up with Israel which has been a longstanding goal of USA: to legitimize Israel amongst the Arabs. So, if KSA ditches USA but accepts Israel, then the American goal is established because Israel is just an extension of the US; the only nuclear power in the region, who can exert American influence with impunity (see Palestine genocides for reference). The entire development is nothing more than a sleight of hand.
US wanted to expand the Abrahams accord with Saudis recognizing Israel, in other to be able to pull more of their attention and resources away from the ME.

Not to mention their downsizing of forces in ME over the last decade (there's actually hardly any US combat troops in ME today).
 

chlosy

Junior Member
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US wanted to expand the Abrahams accord with Saudis recognizing Israel, in other to be able to pull more of their attention and resources away from the ME.

Not to mention their downsizing of forces in ME over the last decade (there's actually hardly any US combat troops in ME today).
Saudi Israel mutual recognition- held up by a lot of Palestinian blood
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Since when in modern times has China provided security guarantee to Saudi Arabia or any country for that matter?
Seriously it seems to me like some people are wishing or hoping so much for China to get involved in the political abd geopolitical affairs of other countries so much so that they project that wishes/hopes into reality. Lol
China is not in the habit of getting involved in such things as i said before. Whether we like it or not but thats the current CCP policy of non interference in others political affairs since the death of Mao and opening up of the country. The US,Russia , UK, France etc have long been used in throwing their power around all over the world and getting involved politically and militarily in countries political affairs around the world so much so that its almost part of their national fabric but China doesn't and rightly so
So if you are a leader of those countries and you want to maintain your rule or position then of course it will make more sense to keep the US closer since you know they are more willing to get involved in such things compared to China who doesn't like getting herself involved in such endeavours apart from sticking to business and investment. So we should learn to separate those 2 apart.


Saudi Arabia is building up its own military, including UAE and the rest of the region too, because they see that they can expect nothing from the collapsing US, no kind of protection.

A few years ago they didn't do shit when Iran bombed Saudi oil fields, when Saudis went to war in Yemen when Iran basically took the entire Iraq, Assad consolidated Syria, etc,

The US gets humiliated in Syria, and Iraq, on a daily basis, and with that many soldiers left, they could be easily taken as hostages by Shia para-millitaries, America should all pull them back and stop getting embarrassed.

Do you know how the US can provide security? If they went in, mobilized millions of soldiers, and invaded and controlled Iran. But that is a science faction in today's balance of power between them. The US has no guts for something like that because it would be a humiliating defeat.

So, then, if that clearly can't happen, a way better security guarantee for Saudis and smaller nations around them is to have China control Iran and have some kind of peaceful coexistence long-term with Iran through that.

Do you think the military is the only kind of way to get influence abroad? Then you are outdated around 30 years, that's the most expensive way to spread influence.

China does it many times smarter, for less money lost, and has way more influence than the US around the Global South, especially in the Middle East today, creating economic, technological, diplomatic, scientific, and win-win conditions for both themselves and the countries in question.

Do you see what happens when you focus entirely outward like in the US? Then you have a near civil war inside the country, and are overextended,

Unlike China which has a regular army regionally focused, and a budget and society focused on stability, harmony, and societal cohesion, and PAP, etc.

That's a 5000-year-old mindset, always first build up on your defense, and then use what is left to have influence abroad, but first secure internal peace and stability.

That is something that arrogant, young, 250-year-old America doesn't understand, and that's why they will collapse in a civil war, they are Third World level divisions and instability, Africa is better.

They are going into trillions of debt to keep their foreign military presence and strong image while internally their citizens are the unhappiest in the world.

But regarding the military itself, way cost-efficient way to spread your military abroad is to use those civilian BRI ports as stop-overs into the world instead of building expensive bases, there is no need for that many expensive aircraft carriers, this is the year 2023, and you live in 1993.
 
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Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Emergence of China has tilted the politics but I believe USA is still a major power broker in the region.

They are at best at the level of Iran, or Iran is a slightly stronger power in the Middle East.

Look at how many completely loyal proxies Iran has in the region, what kind of strategic projection with its land missiles, etc. The US could only dream of that.

Of course, the US will always be a major power everywhere, but currently, in the Middle East, I gave you 10-20 metrics in which the US is far behind China.

You gave 1 category in which the US is above China (military bases) and one conspiracy theory-level argument about some Holywood movie.

Diplomatically, politically, and economically, China is many times more important than the US.

And in security (just one of the branches of foreign influence, not the only branch lol), the US repeatedly failed, suffered its own humiliations in the region, failed to back and protect Saudis, and failed to stop Iran in any of its objectives, failed to deliver weapons on time, etc.

Yes, they have some military bases, but that's tens of thousands of soldiers at most combined for the whole region, that's irrelevant.

Or else, Saudis wouldn't disrespect them so much with oil supply cuts for "Putin's war", selling energy in yuan to China, BRICS, SCO, etc.

Do you think Saudi Arabia and UAE wouldn't allow Chinese bases today if that was the Chinese official strategy? In a millisecond my friend...


USA is still a major power broker in the region.

They have control over no one except Israel, and even that is debatable.

(I think it is Israel that has literally control over them instead).

Bahrain who signed the Abraham Accords withdrew its ambassador from Israel,

Saudi Arabia and UAE always voiced strong opposition to Israel's actions, etc.

That's showing you how American-led initiatives end up in that region nowadays.

Do Saudi princes visit China as much as USA?

Yes, that's the case, but also Blinked waits a whole night to get received, Biden gets its calls ignored for days, Xi, Putin get 10 times better receptions, etc...

What's to fear? Saudis are already seen as collaborators with Israel.

If they are collaborating with Israel, on some issues, they are doing it due to their own regional geo-strategic interests and that has next to no connection with the US.
 
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_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
They are at best at the level of Iran, or Iran is a slightly stronger power in the Middle East.

Look at how many completely loyal proxies Iran has in the region, what kind of strategic projection with its land missiles, etc. The US could only dream of that.
What's to dream about? Gulf countries are armed by US, with US bases. The largest airbase in the middle east is neither Arab nor Iranian.
Of course, the US will always be a major power everywhere, but currently, in the Middle East, I gave you 10-20 metrics in which the US is far behind China.
???
You gave 1 category in which the US is above China (military bases) and one conspiracy theory-level argument about some Holywood movie.
You might think it's a conspiracy because it's your first time hearing it, but it's common knowledge.

Diplomatically, politically, and economically, China is many times more important than the US.

And in security (just one of the branches of foreign influence, not the only branch lol), the US repeatedly failed, suffered its own humiliations in the region, failed to back and protect Saudis, and failed to stop Iran in any of its objectives, failed to deliver weapons on time, etc.

Yes, they have some military bases, but that's tens of thousands of soldiers at most combined for the whole region, that's irrelevant.
What do you think is the purpose of these military bases? Hint: Ramstein.

Or else, Saudis wouldn't disrespect them so much with oil supply cuts for "Putin's war", selling energy in yuan to China, BRICS, SCO, etc.

Do you think Saudi Arabia and UAE wouldn't allow Chinese bases today if that was the Chinese official strategy? In a millisecond my friend...

They have control over no one except Israel, and even that is debatable.

(I think it is Israel that has literally control over them instead).

Bahrain who signed the Abraham Accords withdrew its ambassador from Israel,
Bahrain isn't a major player in the region.
Saudi Arabia and UAE always voiced strong opposition to Israel's actions, etc.

That's showing you how American-led initiatives end up in that region nowadays.
Voicing opposition is as moot as not voicing opposition. Majority of the world has voiced opposition to the current Israeli invasion, but what has it changed? Nothing!
Only once an Arab monarch led a real initiative against America, and he was soon found dead.
Yes, and Blinked waits a whole night to get received, Biden gets its calls ignored for days, Xi, Putin get 10 times better receptions, etc...

If they are collaborating with Israel, on some issues, they are doing it due to their own regional geo-strategic interests and that has next to no connection with the US.
Nice joke. Tell me more?
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
What's to dream about? Gulf countries are armed by US, with US bases. The largest airbase in the middle east is neither Arab nor Iranian.

Ok, that's only 2 valid arguments you mentioned so far that sound convincing, unlike those previous conspiracy theory-based ones. So, I will address them one last time and then go.

First, like I said if it was the Chinese official strategy, in a millisecond you would also have Chinese full-on bases there due to the superior, warm relations between China and Arab states.

But I don't think that it's Chinese strategy to squander money like that when they can keep the greater amount of influence through other win-win tactics (mentioned right below), and use various BRI ports there as eventual stop-over places for their navy.

Btw, those US bases were built decades ago when the US was many times stronger than today.

And in a few years, after they finish their own largest military modernization in history, you will also have Chinese weapons becoming dominant in the region, because they are mostly way cheaper but also the same or superior quality to the US overpriced, late-delivered ones.

Anyway, I don't think it's a problem for Iran to destroy the majority of US military bases in the region in addition to a few incoming aircraft carriers with their numerous and highest-quality land-based missiles.

If we see what Iranian Shia paramilitary proxies are doing to their bases in Syria and Iraq, imagine how Iran itself would do with way superior drones and various missiles.

Or else, why didn't the US use that largest airbase when Iran bombed Saudi oil fields, destroying their soldiers in Iraq, and Syria, arming Houthis who now openly steal their ships, etc...?



Biggest trade partner (exports, energy), (imports, critical industrial machinery, and technology), biggest mutual FDI flow, debt from Chinese banks, infrastructure development and know-how, scientific and technological transfer of knowledge, participation in the diversification of the Saudi economy, participation of Saudi Arabia in BRICS and SCO, and Chinese assistance in keeping communication open with Iran and ensuring peace for them. In addition to way more common governing system and outlook about the world.

Bahrain isn't a major player in the region.

Yeah, but it's among the only 3 they managed to convince to warm relations with their master-state Israel, and it still ultimately failed as we see.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
Ok, that's only 2 valid arguments you mentioned so far that sound convincing, unlike those previous conspiracy theory-based ones. So, I will address them one last time and then go.
What is a conspiracy? That KSA is on an American leash?
First, like I said if it was the Chinese official strategy, in a millisecond you would also have Chinese full-on bases there due to the superior, warm relations between China and Arab states.

But I don't think that it's Chinese strategy to squander money like that when they can keep the greater amount of influence through other win-win tactics (mentioned right below), and use various BRI ports there as eventual stop-over places for their navy.
Exactly. It's not Chinese strategy, atleast not yet. That's how US maintains influence in the region.
Btw, those US bases were built decades ago when the US was many times stronger than today.

And in a few years, after they finish their own largest military modernization in history, you will also have Chinese weapons becoming dominant in the region, because they are mostly way cheaper but also the same or superior quality to the US overpriced, late-delivered ones.

Anyway, I don't think it's a problem for Iran to destroy the majority of US military bases in the region in addition to a few incoming aircraft carriers with their numerous and highest-quality land-based missiles.

If we see what Iranian Shia paramilitary proxies are doing to their bases in Syria and Iraq, imagine how Iran itself would do with way superior drones and various missiles.

Or else, why didn't the US use that largest airbase when Iran bombed Saudi oil fields, destroying their soldiers in Iraq, and Syria, arming Houthis who now openly steal their ships, etc...?
I'm not even talking of Iran. I'm talking of internal power brokering. Arabs are coerced to rely on US for their INTERNAL security. US always places military bases and more clandestine private contractor cells in countries it has subjugated (Ramstein and Okinawa are good example); in case anyone gets out of line, they can be replaced quickly.
Biggest trade partner (exports, energy), (imports, critical industrial machinery, and technology), biggest mutual FDI flow, debt from Chinese banks, infrastructure development and know-how, scientific and technological transfer of knowledge, participation in the diversification of the Saudi economy, participation of Saudi Arabia in BRICS and SCO, and Chinese assistance in keeping communication open with Iran and ensuring peace for them. In addition to way more common governing system and outlook about the world.
China isn't countering US in Arab politics.
Yeah, but it's among the only 3 they managed to convince to warm relations with their master-state Israel, and it still ultimately failed as we see.
The ones that didn't fail have the major influence beyond their borders. Anyways, it is very early in this development. But the way things are progressing, one by one, everyone will accept Israel.

Maybe you haven't acknowledged the idea that Israel itself is a Western proxy state. Thus, US need not be there physically so long as Israel is there and most major regional players have accepted Israel: Qatar, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE.. who is left? Bombed to stone age Syria and Iraq, Iran and Yemen are the only ones who will resist. Lebanon, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman are non influential.
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
What is a conspiracy? That KSA is on an American leash?
I'm not even talking of Iran. I'm talking of internal power brokering. Arabs are coerced to rely on US for their INTERNAL security. US always places military bases and more clandestine private contractor cells in countries it has subjugated (Ramstein and Okinawa are good example); in case anyone gets out of line, they can be replaced quickly.


I meant that posts like this second one quoted sound like conspiracy theories to me, or at least in the context of SA and other Sunni Arab states.

If you seriously compare 100% US vassal countries such as Germany and Japan to SA,

Then either you are extremely biased, confused, or have some serious knowledge gaps.

I mean you compare occupied Germany and Japan to a full-on member of BRI, BRICS, SCO,

Who already started selling some of its oil in yuan to China, has a different political system than those 2 countries,

It has a radically different population mentality, cuts oil production constantly despite the US begging them for nearly 2 years already, etc.

It seems to me that you seriously need to reevaluate your entire preconceived notion about that part of the world and SA especially.

You also said this: "In case anyone gets out of line, they can be replaced quickly.",

But, ok, so in your opinion all of this I mentioned above isn't "getting out of line" for you?

We have just 2 options then, either a) that's not getting "out of line", which sounds less likely, or b) that statement is simply a conspiracy theory.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Smells like he's coping that US will make some secret triumphant return any day now... Remember, they can always "replace anyone they don't agree with"! Lmao

Sometimes counteroffensive that go nowhere are just that. Counteroffensive that go nowhere. Saudi cutting oil is US psyops, pivoting to China is US psyops. Switching to yuan is US psyops. Any day now, the 4D chess will reveal itself and all the psyops will be justified... Not.

If military bases is king, then Iran has way more soldiers forward deployed outside its own country in the ME than US. Military is of key importance, but particularly when it comes to countries that can't fight well, diplomatic control is a cornerstone as well.
 
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