Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

tphuang

tphuang

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KYli said:
Both BRICS and SCO were formed at a time that the world is a lot different. Beside, China never wanted to invite India to SCO in the first place but Russia insisted that India should be invited to counter weight China's growing influence which China was forced to accept but also asked Pakistan to join. By the time both India and Pakistan have joined the SCO security pact, SCO has become irrelevant. Archrival such as India and Pakistan can't join the same group of framework that is dedicated to security without rendering any security agreement impossible to agree and progress. Unlike BRICS, SCO had more potential to form an alliance to counter the West if India didn't join.

As for BRICS, I doubt China would have predicted India would choose a path of populist policies and leaders. Modi is a populist leader that doesn't care much for pragmatism or long term planning. China is working to expand BRICS to dilute India's influence to the BRICS. By creating BRICS bank in Shanghai, China has ensured that India has little say in many future economic cooperation or framework. In the end of the day, China has money and India doesn't have money. Other political and diplomatical agreements probably can progress as most nations just want to shield themselves from G7 and Western powers' hegemony and abuse of powers and financial sanctions.

I doubt BRICS can be formed as anti-American alliance even if India didn't join. Most countries just don't want to choose a side in the future power struggle between the US and China. However, it is quite possible BRICS can develop into a pact that could ensure any Western sanctions would become irrelevant. BRICS might be able to provide an alternative to the Western financial hegemony that countries would have a choice other than IMF and World bank that imposed Western policies and will and interests onto any borrowing countries and forced them to accept radical and painful reforms or disposed state owned assets.
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right, so the functionality of BRICS is a counter-west/colonialism/anglo-saxon kind of organization. It's seeking for a different economic order. China & India's interest are aligned on this although they hope different outcomes from it. Having India in BRICS simply just increases the attractiveness as a anti-west organization rather than just one where you follow China's orders. That's far more palatable for other countries. And also give those countries a cover since they are not just joining a China/Russia alliance but rather one with all the major global south countries. Just watch how the importance given to Brazil at NDB has given a lift to its relevance for Latin American countries. If you seek to replace IMF and world bank, then China has to hide a little bit behind its cover.

Everyone knows when they come to NDB in Shanghai that China is the real power behind BRICS, but as long as India doesn't do anything self-destructive, BRICS will continue to serve both countries.
 
coolgod

coolgod

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TK3600 said:
On the topic of SCO and India, are there any nuanced discussions? I kinda want to hear more arguments besides "India block initiatives, India bad".
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You mean besides the fact India turned SCO summit virtual just to appease Modi visiting the US? Is that not symbolic enough or are you looking for more examples? I recalled there were a few written interviews on Guancha with ppl who work and research SCO, they pointed out some specifics examples of when SCO had to change many wordings in SCO summit declarations just to appease India. One big topic which this recently occured was dealing with Afghanistan I believe.

Maybe this recent news could give you a better understanding of India's attitude in these non-western multilateral organizations.

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Jaishankar seeks support to make English 3rd official language of SCO​

Generally China and others in SCO don't leak out the details of what goes on in SCO, to preserve the prestige of the organization, but that GlobalTimes article hinted at the reason.

Even if India is cold toward the SCO or acts as an obstacle on certain issues, China and other members can simply exclude India from cooperation. Among the SCO members, China has corresponding cooperation mechanisms with other members, such as the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination for a new era, the China-Pakistan-Iran trilateral consultation on counter-terrorism and security, the China-Pakistan-Afghanistan trilateral cooperation mechanism, and, most recently, the China-Central Asia Summit.
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BTW China and Pakistan aren't the only countries complaining about India's role in multilateral organizations. Look at QUAD, they basically replaced India with Philippines now.

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Overbom

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TK3600 said:
On the topic of SCO and India, are there any nuanced discussions? I kinda want to hear more arguments besides "India block initiatives, India bad".
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What's the point of having nuanced discussions for the sake of having nuanced discussions when the truth is sometimes that simple? The argument "India block initiatives, India bad" is 100% accurate and perfectly describes the current situation
 
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Overbom

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FairAndUnbiased said:
SCO is done thanks to India. Russian influence to put India in, ironically harmed themselves, as now China cannot take a more active role in SCO.
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You can thank the you-know-who guy. The gift that keeps on giving.

AssassinsMace said:
India is a fence sitter. They don't want to be caught on the wrong side. They want to make sure they end up on the winning side. Even if they decided to join the West, they don't know if the West would win against China. If China wins, they're screwed.
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India used the same strategy in Cold War and had some "interesting" results
 
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luminary

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FairAndUnbiased said:
SCO is done thanks to India. Russian influence to put India in, ironically harmed themselves, as now China cannot take a more active role in SCO.
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Russia has an obsession of "balancing" China because it is the same type of imperialist nation as the US. They are continuing to practice the divide and conquer strategy, hoping that another Asiatic power will somehow cut China down so they can escape from China's immense economic gravity.
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to join in what they see as Russia's new global bloc. National figures continue to champion solely Russia as the one true garden,
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The truth is that Russians wouldn't be so offended by Western "Russophobia" if they didn't see themselves as white brethren and wish to be reaccepted and rejoined with their kind. Their anxieties will be only quelled by a proper Sinification of their country.


Thoughts on BRICS+:
Ideally BRICS+ should include all the remaining G20 nations that are currently alienated from this US-led System: Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, plus Argentina and Mexico. This would be a direct challenge as it would include Turkey (in NATO) and Mexico (in NAFTA).

The G20 would then be split down the middle 10 vs 10, with the US, Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Canada, Australia, South Korea and the EU versus an expanded BRICS+.
 
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Biscuits

Major
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luminary said:
Russia has an obsession of "balancing" China because it is the same type of imperialist nation as the US. They are continuing to practice the divide and conquer strategy, hoping that another Asiatic power will somehow cut China down so they can escape from China's immense economic gravity.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to join in what they see as Russia's new global bloc. National figures continue to champion solely Russia as the one true garden,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The truth is that Russians wouldn't be so offended by Western "Russophobia" if they didn't see themselves as white brethren and wish to be reaccepted and rejoined with their kind. Their anxieties will be only quelled by a proper Sinification of their country.


Thoughts on BRICS+:
Ideally BRICS+ should include all the remaining G20 nations that are currently alienated from this US-led System: Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, plus Argentina and Mexico. This would be a direct challenge as it would include Turkey (in NATO) and Mexico (in NAFTA).

The G20 would then be split down the middle 10 vs 10, with the US, Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Canada, Australia, South Korea and the EU versus an expanded BRICS+.
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Even if China is having success with expansions right now, it should not be forgotten that Russia is THE single most important territory that must remain controlled.

Russian food, oil, ores and wood will not only keep China alive indefinitely, but ensure that China can always mobilize properly and win the industrial war.

The war in Ukraine is a massive geopolitical boon, which should be exploited as much as possible, in order to strengthen ties. Not just diplomatic agreements, but the exchange of goods and people, as well as the standardisation of education, industries and tools.

Some European nationalists have compared Russia to mongols as an insult. As I see it, it is far better to be a Mongol than to be a Tsarist. The Mongols were a free people, each owning their own household and means of production. The Tsar, like all other European autocrats, treated their subjects like chattel and ruled through crown appointed oligarchs.

The Asian ruled Russian could choose whichever career he had the means to pursue, the European ruled Russian was bound on his own land plot for his whole life, doomed to toil like a machine for an "aristocrat", who distribute back to him the bare minimum he needed to survive.

But did Russia's history with Europe not at least give them western technology? No. Japan acquired the same with minimal struggle and defeated the Tsarist Russian almost effortlessly. China acquired better technology without ever prostrating itself or going to war over it.

Europe has truly brought nothing to Russia except autocracy, acceptance of degenerate western corruption and dehumanization. It's time to get rid of the European Russian mindset.
 
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