Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Strongest supporter for China in EU is not Hungary. It is objectively Greece. This is a fact, not an opinion. Polls and events prove this.

Polls show Hungarians hate Chinese. Events show that while Hungarians riot against Chinese giving them free money and education (lmao) Greeks are welcoming China and defying anyone who tells them to stop.

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There is no reason to work towards those who are proven to be consistently and irredeemably hostile. Turkey is objectively one of the most hostile country to China in the world next to Japan and South Korea. This is again proven by polls and events. A fact, not an opinion. This has not been for lack of China trying to get Turkey to see things more agreeably. There are over 15 years of extreme hostility from Turkey.

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Giving any concessions to Turkey risks alienating Greece, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Israel and basically every country that distrusts them for good reason. Any investment legitimizes their regime and gives them a lifeline. Investment is money given to them up front, after all. Any trade beyond civilian merchandise paid for up front is a risk from these hostile regimes.

You should not trust Turkey to behave in their own interest. You can trust them to behave in what they think is their interest. There's a huge difference. Turkish leaders think that high interest rates cause inflation. With this level of economics knowledge do you really think they even know what their interests are?

And their "lower interest rates will lower inflation" thing is not a 1 time mistake, it is part of their core economic ideology. They've been doing it for 3 years. Suffice to say, its not working.

2021:
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2022:
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2023:
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India behaves the same way. They do not behave in their own interest, they behave in what they think is their interest, which is different. Indian mismanagement has crashed their economy after demonetization.

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India outright steals foreign investments which is why foreign companies are leaving India despite huge geopolitical pressure to invest there.

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You can't trust the competence or self preservation instincts of Turkey and India.
The thing about Turkey and India is that they are middle powers that believes themselves to be something more. That makes them more belligerent to everyone, both US and China, but it also makes their national ego much more fractured.

They're not really enemies but cannot become allies either. However, they are *opportunities* that can be used. Perhaps right now, Turkey more so than India but you never know.

By steering clear of outright offending them (but of course responding to their territorial overreach with swift suppression, as China did against Turkish terrorism in Xinjiang), China can eventually align their oversized ambitions against America.

China's strength is that unlike US, it doesn't need a "new rules based order". It's government already directly rules as many people as US + EU together, only has slightly smaller economy than both together and has no need for colonial occupations, because friendly partner states provide all of China's resource needs.

That means that middle powers flexing their nationalism is not a threat to China, which has everything it needs at home, but it is a threat to America, which needs to retain it's status as the Fuhrer of the West and slavemaster of the third world.

As so, all flavors of national self determinism, eurosceptism, even Indian economic nationalism, should be stoked to a limited degree, because all these will step on Washington's toes, while China could care less about it.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
he absolutely can do nothing. LMAO

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All major components/parts Turkey do import from China.
Turkish industry's domestic component ratio is actually increasing. What's happening is that Chinese products are replacing European products, which is also happening in Europe to an extent too.
 

resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
How much of that Turkish empire dream has been enabled by the US support?
Given the US declining influence in western Asian and central Asia, Erdogan just like the Saudi will have to
rethink their geopolitical goals and ambitions.

Im sure the US promised the Saudis they would rule the Shia crescent so they would be happy to cooperate with Iraq and Syria. I wouldn't be surprised the west promised the same to Turkey help us destabilise western China and if they break away we will make sure you will have influence in that region as our proxy ruler.

Also looking at China just for profits is a healthy view it makes managing the relationship really easy, instead of looking toward China as some geopolitical rival or backer.

It's shocking to me that the people here think that the rapprochement in the region has only begun after the Saudi-Iran deal. In truth it started right after the ceasefire in Libya as the GNA had recaptured much of the Western regions.

Also, the relations between Turkey and the Gulf has become much better over the last two years. For example, The UAE has placed a large order of TB2s and the Saudis are even sending F-15s for this year's Anatolian Eagle exercises for the first time in +/- 7 years.

the Emiratis had actually bombed a Turkish Hawk battery at the Al-Watiya Air Base in the past with help from France and Egypt but now we're at a point where they're procuring advanced weapons from Turkey and are heavily investing in the country. Would you just think about that?

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I'm not going to answer all the false claims going on over here as I don't have the time for it.

You guys should follow the news more often.
Is this your f-15 news?
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Saudis and turkey relation is worsen, not better.

UAE is now trying to be next Switzerland of middle east as foreign policy is friendly neutral with anybody as possible. This is not the case for china Saudi and iran.
 

resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
Taking territory from China?

View attachment 111489

Oh my. I thought America's education system was bad but this guy here doesn't even know his own country's neighbours.

In my unbiased opinion, you guys should take what you read about Turkey from the media with a grain of salt.

These days most of the self proclaimed "Turkey Experts" on the media unfortunately don't even know anything about the country, let alone live in it. It's like they are in a repeated dialogue of the deaf but there's only one side.

I'm sure the Chinese people can somewhat relate when it comes to nonsense reports by dumb reporters about your country.
Turkey isn't taking Chinese territories for itself but try to create east Turkestan which mean taking Chinese territories. Turkey support for separatism is undeniable

The media said the same things like you do about turkey antagonizing west but misreported many Turkish actions support thing the west. That's why I take your naive but unbiased opinion as the grain of salt like those media.

Chinese leader and people are smart that they place Greece in CSP but not turkey.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Turkey isn't taking Chinese territories for itself but try to create east Turkestan which mean taking Chinese territories. Turkey support for separatism is undeniable

The media said the same things like you do about turkey antagonizing west but misreported many Turkish actions support thing the west. That's why I take your naive but unbiased opinion as the grain of salt like those media.

Chinese leader and people are smart that they place Greece in CSP but not turkey.

What is "CSP" ?
 

resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
What is "CSP" ?
Greece is still slightly more favorable at 52% positive. But Hungary hasn't harmed China, so if they're comparable, its OK. China has plenty of good will in both Greece and Hungary. The difference of course is that Greece has the support of France while Hungary is distrusted in the EU. Not China's problem but Greece has plenty to offer like ports and ties with France.

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Turkey likes Chinese aid, not Chinese or China. Erdogan is only 1 person. He will be out of power eventually, and Turkish bureaucratic elites (like the ones I cited) don't like China, as well as the public. There's tons of evidence for this. This means that they can turn against China any time with both elite motivation and popular level justification.

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Obviously, if Turkey is willing to make choices in their own interest - not concessions, as it would be in their interest anyhow - such as using RMB as reserve currency, that can be considered the start of creating conditions. But its just the start. The red line is their support of separatism. That is the cost: legitimizing and enabling their repeated support of separatism.

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Selling weapons to Turkey is currently not so likely. Turkey is not very high ranked on the Chinese diplomatic ladder, not yet at the level of "comprehensive strategic partnership". This shows a distrust of Turkey. Iran and Greece, on the other hand, is ranked at "comprehensive strategic partnership" which is one of the highest levels of Chinese diplomatic recognition.

Ranking guide:
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Turkey not yet CSP:
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Iran is CSP:
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Greece is CSP:
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1st risk is separatism. The cost is legitimizing their support of separatism and signalling that China is not serious about separatism. That is the wrong and most costly of all signals.

2nd risk, mostly from India, is theft, like what happened to Xiaomi.
Here
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Turkish industry's domestic component ratio is actually increasing. What's happening is that Chinese products are replacing European products, which is also happening in Europe to an extent too.
Yes, it's a great thing to have more commerce between China and Turkey.
I posted this on economics thread, but good to repeat here
huge jump, over 50% jump YoY in export to Turkey and I would imagine replacing European products is a large part of that

Of course, if you look at the chart, you see the growing dependence a lot of countries in central asia, west asia and Russia now have with China. Singapore figure is just as staggering.

btw, Singapore exercise with PLAN coming
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maybe around IMDEX Asian in early May when they can display some goodies for ASEAN countries.

And this is what they should be encouraging
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China/Turkey companies also working together on international projects
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resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes, it's a great thing to have more commerce between China and Turkey.
I posted this on economics thread, but good to repeat here
huge jump, over 50% jump YoY in export to Turkey and I would imagine replacing European products is a large part of that

Of course, if you look at the chart, you see the growing dependence a lot of countries in central asia, west asia and Russia now have with China. Singapore figure is just as staggering.

btw, Singapore exercise with PLAN coming
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maybe around IMDEX Asian in early May when they can display some goodies for ASEAN countries.

And this is what they should be encouraging
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China/Turkey companies also working together on international projects
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This is economic co operation china endorse with turkey. Nothing about security.

Turkey just don't want to withdraw from Syria. It try to negotiate to stay, unlike Saudis who try return everything back to the original status of Syria.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Taking territory from China?

View attachment 111489

Oh my. I thought America's education system was bad but this guy here doesn't even know his own country's neighbours.

In my unbiased opinion, you guys should take what you read about Turkey from the media with a grain of salt.

These days most of the self proclaimed "Turkey Experts" on the media unfortunately don't even know anything about the country, let alone live in it. It's like they are in a repeated dialogue of the deaf but there's only one side.

I'm sure the Chinese people can somewhat relate when it comes to nonsense reports by dumb reporters about your country.
I said they dream about it, not that it's realistic. But a people which wishes for or dreams about part of China becoming independent or join a pan Turkish empire is not a great partner.

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There's another problem with turkey and to some extent India. Due to their electoral system, the whole country can swing back to pro US quite quickly. Even Saudi could rejoin the US led system once Biden is gone.

China alone can overtake America in power, but it will take many more decades until it can overtake the whole western bloc. The eastern bloc was shattered by the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but China is building a new network of alliances. Some countries should be China's closest allies, those that are committed to fight against the West. Countries that are on the fence should be engaged, but we have to be realistic. They will not easily give up the option of running back to Washington if there's a need.

So the most sanctioned countries should be China's natural partners. Russia, Iran, North Korea and Cuba are the most obvious candidates. You may enjoy insulting them for not being more successful, but for these countries it's outside pressure that is weakening them. China should help to lift that pressure and create powerful allies. Countries that have options, like Saudi, turkey, Indonesia, Vietnam etc are also very useful economic partners, but there's clearly a bigger risk there. I'm not against such partnerships, but countries that don't have the option of returning to the US should be closer partners.

I posted this on economics thread, but good to repeat here
What these new emerging trade patterns show is the potential of West and Central Asia as an export market. That's enough for a "new silk road". I wouldn't bet on Europe
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
I think Turkey is much more useful than India. India is unlikely to committ to USA even if you leave them be. Turkey however can inflict some damage in the western cohesion. I am not expecting Turkey to do much for China, but if they can be a pain in the ass in the west drawing attention then that is more than helpful. With that in mind just making Turkey neutral and selfish like India is good enough.

I find dealing with country with oversized ambition is to make them take a demoralizing loss from somewhere not by you. Once Syria drain all their capacity like Yemen did for Saudi they might wake up from delusion. Maybe. If that happens there can be deeper cooperation.
 
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