A Bar Brother
Junior Member
FGFA is still some ways away. They need to sign the deal first.
Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)
- Thread starter A Bar Brother
- Start date
FGFA is still some ways away. They need to sign the deal first.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
So your reasoning is still, "If IAF chose Rafale over all the other fighters, then it must be the best." Cost and technology transfer issues aside, have you wondered why other nations did not arrive at the same conclusions? How many customers does F-35 have? How many does Rafale have? How many does Typhoon have? By your logic, Chevy must make the best cars in the world cus I chose a Chevy even though I could have bought Ford, Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, heck, if I decided to finance, I might have even afforded something Italian. But Chevy's gotta be numba 1 by the evidence that I bought it, right? (Though I wouldn't take 6+ years to do the paperwork and contracts.)
Are you seriously taking those arbitrary point scores into consideration? Those are artificially assessed scores; a computer did them based on what the programers told it. It's not solid at all; that's telling the computer to assume that everything you think you know is absolute fact, that everything you don't know doesn't exist, then asking the computer to tell you what your conclusion should be. Any factor, any programming variation could cause those scores to shoot wildly in any direction. If you believed that, there wouldn't be real wars; countries would put their military info into a computer and the computer would run a simulation and tell which country wins and it would save a ton of lives and money. Heck, why even bother with tenders and airshows? Just put all that info into the cpu and it'll tell you which one is the best and all the other jets can be scrapped and everyone could buy the one with the highest score, right? You think all the Typhoon and F-35 buyers are kickin' themselves about not buying the Rafale after seeing your made-up numbers? Quick, hide them! If those numbers were seen by some important people, they would all cancel their F-35 orders and get Rafales! Same score, but cheaper! It's gonna be pandemonium! LOLOL The fact that you even brought up those scores shows how ignorant you are about military assessments.
Dude, stop making stuff up about active stealth and better avionics on the PAK FA than the F-35. Quite frankly, even giving you that PAK FA will have superior aerodynamics than F-22 is throwing you a bone. It doesn't matter if you're talking about massive changes internally (no sh//t; does it even have everything internally yet?) or externally (an insinuation which you did make with that silly fan-made picture of a smooth PAK FA with stealth nozzles on page 1); they take money, time, luck and they are uncertain. Russia simply does NOT have the resources to research avionics superior to those of the F-35 nor spend massive money/time developing PAK FA. At this point, Russia is making a jet that 1. makes money 2. won't get totally run over in a real war, and number 2 only applies to the Russian versions. If it achieves those, mission accomplished.
India holds 50% of Izdeliye 30? What exactly do you hold? Do you have the prototype? The engineers? Or you mean the Russians hold your money? They're all Russian and in Russia. Who loves money? Russia. Who has lots of it? China. If China threw tens of billions at Russia, they will rip up your contract. They don't remember signing it; maybe they put an exit clause in there that you didn't realize. They didn't like the tires you made for the PAK FA so you're out LOL All they know is, they have a lot more money now and don't need to make anymore trips to 130 degree monsoon-hit swamps to get change. Money talks; what are you gonna do about it? Or do you think Russia loves India more than money and would never do that to its sweet lil' brother? LOL
"You see, unlike China, India has always had better negotiation capability." LOL Don't even in your dreams fool yourself into thinking you have anything over China. If Russians gave you anything more, it is because of 1 reason and that is they don't believe you are competent enough to learn anything from it or reverse-engineer it like the Chinese would. India got MiG-21s? Oh, well, that's real far, back, eh? China got MiG-15s in the Korean War and have been bootlegging Russian fighters since the 50s (J-5). China engaged Russia's arms market long before India.
Who else would the US offer these "joint" ventures to? China? The rival that it's trying to contain? LOL India and Japan are the 2 pieces that the US is trying to use to contain China; don't tell me you've fooled yourself into thinking the US offered you these ventures because it wants Indian "expertise"? That you quoted such a vague and weightless Reuters news article as some kind of honor and achievement is just too sad; it's just not on the level of this forum. Every week, dozens of articles like that are written about how the US wishes to engage China's military to build trust and to move forward together or develop new jet fuel together and there are dozens more about how the US is committed to containing China. If you quoted those articles as evidence you'd develop schizophrenia. The US has had plenty of joint ventures with its allies with much more going on in Japan than in India, but most importantly, that you think a joint venture is a "privilege" shows me that you know India's true place, so stop putting on this front.
Strategically speaking, it would be beneficial to Russia to supply its best weapons to China because a stronger Chinese force draws American forces into the Pacific, thinning its forces facing Russia in the Euro-Atlantic region. In contrast, Russia has absolutely no care in how India fares in any potential conflict; rather, Russia gains to make money for every problem and upgrade India encounters/needs. Just why would you think that the Russians would do so much for India? I do not understand; for love or altruism?
Russia feels India's heat? LOL Yeah, the janitor at Sukhoi who answers the Indian questions feels the heat as he's googling/flipping through Aviation Weekly for the answers. The rest of the Sukhoi team are glad to have the money, wish they had more, and feel no desire or obligation to speak with anyone who's not Russian. Tell them you don't like what's going on in the project; you think you'll get a refund? Bring the "heat"! LOL I can imagine Putin's personal vodka-breathed rumbling laugh.
Are you seriously taking those arbitrary point scores into consideration? Those are artificially assessed scores; a computer did them based on what the programers told it. It's not solid at all; that's telling the computer to assume that everything you think you know is absolute fact, that everything you don't know doesn't exist, then asking the computer to tell you what your conclusion should be. Any factor, any programming variation could cause those scores to shoot wildly in any direction. If you believed that, there wouldn't be real wars; countries would put their military info into a computer and the computer would run a simulation and tell which country wins and it would save a ton of lives and money. Heck, why even bother with tenders and airshows? Just put all that info into the cpu and it'll tell you which one is the best and all the other jets can be scrapped and everyone could buy the one with the highest score, right? You think all the Typhoon and F-35 buyers are kickin' themselves about not buying the Rafale after seeing your made-up numbers? Quick, hide them! If those numbers were seen by some important people, they would all cancel their F-35 orders and get Rafales! Same score, but cheaper! It's gonna be pandemonium! LOLOL The fact that you even brought up those scores shows how ignorant you are about military assessments.
Dude, stop making stuff up about active stealth and better avionics on the PAK FA than the F-35. Quite frankly, even giving you that PAK FA will have superior aerodynamics than F-22 is throwing you a bone. It doesn't matter if you're talking about massive changes internally (no sh//t; does it even have everything internally yet?) or externally (an insinuation which you did make with that silly fan-made picture of a smooth PAK FA with stealth nozzles on page 1); they take money, time, luck and they are uncertain. Russia simply does NOT have the resources to research avionics superior to those of the F-35 nor spend massive money/time developing PAK FA. At this point, Russia is making a jet that 1. makes money 2. won't get totally run over in a real war, and number 2 only applies to the Russian versions. If it achieves those, mission accomplished.
India holds 50% of Izdeliye 30? What exactly do you hold? Do you have the prototype? The engineers? Or you mean the Russians hold your money? They're all Russian and in Russia. Who loves money? Russia. Who has lots of it? China. If China threw tens of billions at Russia, they will rip up your contract. They don't remember signing it; maybe they put an exit clause in there that you didn't realize. They didn't like the tires you made for the PAK FA so you're out LOL All they know is, they have a lot more money now and don't need to make anymore trips to 130 degree monsoon-hit swamps to get change. Money talks; what are you gonna do about it? Or do you think Russia loves India more than money and would never do that to its sweet lil' brother? LOL
"You see, unlike China, India has always had better negotiation capability." LOL Don't even in your dreams fool yourself into thinking you have anything over China. If Russians gave you anything more, it is because of 1 reason and that is they don't believe you are competent enough to learn anything from it or reverse-engineer it like the Chinese would. India got MiG-21s? Oh, well, that's real far, back, eh? China got MiG-15s in the Korean War and have been bootlegging Russian fighters since the 50s (J-5). China engaged Russia's arms market long before India.
Who else would the US offer these "joint" ventures to? China? The rival that it's trying to contain? LOL India and Japan are the 2 pieces that the US is trying to use to contain China; don't tell me you've fooled yourself into thinking the US offered you these ventures because it wants Indian "expertise"? That you quoted such a vague and weightless Reuters news article as some kind of honor and achievement is just too sad; it's just not on the level of this forum. Every week, dozens of articles like that are written about how the US wishes to engage China's military to build trust and to move forward together or develop new jet fuel together and there are dozens more about how the US is committed to containing China. If you quoted those articles as evidence you'd develop schizophrenia. The US has had plenty of joint ventures with its allies with much more going on in Japan than in India, but most importantly, that you think a joint venture is a "privilege" shows me that you know India's true place, so stop putting on this front.
Strategically speaking, it would be beneficial to Russia to supply its best weapons to China because a stronger Chinese force draws American forces into the Pacific, thinning its forces facing Russia in the Euro-Atlantic region. In contrast, Russia has absolutely no care in how India fares in any potential conflict; rather, Russia gains to make money for every problem and upgrade India encounters/needs. Just why would you think that the Russians would do so much for India? I do not understand; for love or altruism?
Russia feels India's heat? LOL Yeah, the janitor at Sukhoi who answers the Indian questions feels the heat as he's googling/flipping through Aviation Weekly for the answers. The rest of the Sukhoi team are glad to have the money, wish they had more, and feel no desire or obligation to speak with anyone who's not Russian. Tell them you don't like what's going on in the project; you think you'll get a refund? Bring the "heat"! LOL I can imagine Putin's personal vodka-breathed rumbling laugh.
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Brumby
Major
In terms of the initial rejection of the F-35 and the subsequent acceptance of the FGFA project without reasons given, is that level of transparency normal in India?
Your point then begs the question of the rationale behind the AMCA project because if the F-35 and the Rafale is weighted almost evenly according to India's scores, then there is a degree of redundancy in terms of India pursuing both the AMCA project and the Rafale deal. If the AMCA project is far superior to the F-35 program, then what is the rationale viz a viz the FGFA program?
What exactly is present in the PAKFA program that is clearly absent and deficient within the F-35 program? How much of that is real and deliverable and not some kind of wish list?
Brumby
Major
What differentiate stage 2 from stage 1?
A Bar Brother
Junior Member
Absurd analogy.
Except for the RNAF, nobody has evaluated the Rafale and F-35 together, so there is no question of choosing one over the other. As for other competitions, Rafale has always stood on top by a healthy margin. Look up the Swiss evaluations.
Most countries are buying less number of F-35s. The Dutch have reduced from 85 to 37. The Koreans dropped down to 40 from the 60 they needed. Other countries are doing the same, including UK and Italy only in order to afford the F-35.
Rafale has been under contract negotiations for less than 3 years. It was shortlisted in 2012 and exclusive negotiations began only after the shortlist, not before.
The numbers are not computer generated. The numbers are generated by technicians and pilots who score the jet on the fly.
Technicians and pilots give points based on a number of matrices. For eg: The F-16IN during Indian evaluations had a small mishap. Indian officers were evaluating the time it takes for the F-16 to have its engine changed. The engine carriage broke a wheel while they were wheeling it into the hangar and they took a few hours to fix that. Then they took the usual hour to replace the engine. The Indian evaluators marked the F-16 down for the many hours it took. When LM asked for a redo, it was not taken into consideration. So, they are actually carrying a notepad with a checklist and give points based on what they see. The same for the Dutch evaluation. The only difference is while the Rafale was actually tested in Netherlands, the F-35 evaluation was paper based.
Similarly, a pilot sits in the back seat and marks the aircraft for performance and avionics. He evaluates the aircraft based on everything the aircraft can do. After that special points are given for specific missions that the aircraft can perform. For eg: Typhoon had IRST, so it gets more points in that department while Rafale has interferometry and it gets more points there.
THESE ARE NOT COMPUTER GENERATED. You have a lot of reading to catch up on.
As far as I'm concerned, I would take IAF's word any day of the week over western media and internet trolls.
Heard of IPR? It is not China's strong suit.
In the Brahmos program, DRDO holds 50.5% of the project while Russia holds 49.5%. In the FGFA, the ownership is 50-50. The same between Israel and India for Barak-8. India provides the engine and guidance, the Israelis provide the seeker and radar. The ownership is equal.
So if you want to buy into Izd 30, you will have to pay India a huge amount of money. Of course the magic word in the article is "mutual consent." That means India will have to authorize the sale of the Izd 30 to China irrespective of how much money China wants to throw at India.
Naivety can be cute sometimes.
You didn't get the point the first time so I will explain a bit more. We are not talking about just joint ventures, like the ones between US and Israel or US and Japan. We are talking about joint ventures for export. Basically, India and US will develop technologies and sell it in the international market. The US doesn't have such deals with other countries and therein lies the difference. The only deals the US has for export are some technologies where the US is not the major technology provider. For eg: The Litening and JHMCS, the base technologies come from Israel and they sell the systems to other countries.
Russia is our proxy in the UNSC. So it's good for us. Strategically speaking, Russia can be as friendly to India as they are to China. They don't have to choose one over the other. Similarly, India can be close to US and Russia at the same time.
While China can divert American resources to the Pacific, similarly the Russians are doing the Chinese a favor by diverting NATO towards Russia. Its quid pro quo. Nothing special there.
Anyway your problems don't bother us.
The Russians bent over backwards in order to accommodate our liability clauses. The liability clause says that if we mess up running the reactor, Russia pays for the damages.
The US and the French will also eventually succumb. What does that say about our negotiations capabilities? That janitor better be a rich janitor.
What applies to China doesn't apply to India. Just because you have been ripped off by the Russians for over 50 years doesn't mean we are in the same boat. Maybe because we had better janitors.
Normally I wouldn't reply to such posts, but I made an exception for you since you seem to be so ignorant on so many levels.
A Bar Brother
Junior Member
The IAF hasn't released a lot of information on why the other MRCA contenders lost too. The IAF doesn't actually answer to the taxpayer, they only make it seem so, but the armed forces still end up doing what they want. All we know is, when the media asked about joining the F-35 program, an IAF/MoD official they are not pursuing the F-35. He said that with the FGFA program, another next gen project is unnecessary. I believe this was said back in 2011, after the preliminary design FGFA contract was signed. LM had provided presentations a few years before.
Anyway, FGFA is a strategic project, so information on it will be sparse for many years.
It is too early to speculate on AMCA because of ADA's track record. A lot of the technology on the LCA is Indo-Israeli. The AMCA may be an evolution of the current Indo-Israeli projects. For eg: IAF has already operationalized internal AESA EW suite while the US is yet to do the same. So whether the current technology base is as good or better than the Rafale is yet to be seen. AMCA is a very long ways away.
Anyway, Rafale is needed today while AMCA won't be ready until 2030. It's like saying why pursue the F-35 when NGAD will be ready in a decade or two. AMCA is not even a paper aeroplane today. The programs don't conflict with each other because of the vast difference in timelines.
If you are asking me to speculate based on known information, then there are a few points that come to mind. For one, IAF wants an air superiority aircraft. ADA proposed the AMCA to be a strike aircraft, but IAF changed their requirement to air superiority too. however the F-35 isn't one no matter how rosy LM's brochure is. It cannot supercruise, it cannot climb to 20+ Km, it cannot carry enough weapons etc. So in terms of known specs alone the PAKFA surpasses the F-35 in most performance and load carrying parameters. HAL had posted information on their website saying the range on FGFA will be 3880 Km before they took it down. So long range is another known criteria that the F-35 falls short on. I wonder if IAF loves TVC a bit too much because that is a requirement on both FGFA and AMCA.
Then there are other requirements, and one of them is the 360 degree radar air picture that the IAF wants. Sukhoi said the VVS doesn't have this requirement (hopefully they come around, so it can decrease cost). And we know the F-35 doesn't have this capability either.
Being a larger aircraft, the FGFA may have more onboard power and possibly more capable avionics. So we could be talking about employing directed energy weapons as well. The army wants a radar and directed energy weapons on their tanks already (Arjun Mk2 in specific) for self protection. So IAF may be looking at something similar, so they can get hardkill capability against incoming missiles and even enemy aircraft that come too close. Well, this is all that we know about what IAF wants in avionics, some speculated and some real information.
They had specified 43 major modifications to the PAKFA's design, and I have no way of knowing whether they are feasible or not. But integration of some of these technologies could become a problem with the F-35, both technical and bureaucratic.
Of course, IAF is going to ask for a lot of ToT, which the Americans may not be willing to provide it. Maybe it is possible to cooperate with the US on a future program. The IN wants to make massive forays into fighter jets, and they haven't yet decided if they want to be part of FGFA, AMCA (both are exclusively IAF projects) or an entirely new program. Their appetite for fighter jets is bigger than most other air forces, so even joint development is feasible.
The requirement has been delayed though. So this gives a chance to get in on the USN's NGAD program.
A Bar Brother
Junior Member
Engine and avionics.
The Stage-2 will see the production version of the 175 KN Izd 30 while Stage-1 will be operational with the 150 KN 117. So we will see a massive increase in low observable characteristics, range, endurance, speed, acceleration, reduced maintenance etc. It is a VCE after all, the US is planning for VCE on the F-22 replacement program, and the USN's NGAD.
If the Stage-1 doesn't become operational with GaN radar and electronics, then Stage-2 will.
Even the airframe could be more refined. While the Russians may have finished Stage-2 design by now, the FGFA's detailed design stage is yet to begin.
Brumby
Major
I don't get it in terms of India's approach to this project. On one hand it wants the FGFA like yesterday but is holding out because of engine and avionics which presumably can be retro fitted should they become available later on. India should just get on with it as there are probably tons to absorb even for stage 1 and start to work seriously on 5th gen. stuff early if it wants to stay even with China's progress in this area. I think it should adopt a more practical approach rather than being bureaucratic.
A Bar Brother
Junior Member
IAF wants Rafale as of yesterday. IAF can wait for the FGFA, though not for too long. I think they want the FGFA in 8 years after the contract is signed. Until then, they will have to be satisfied with upgrading the Su-30 with new technologies.
The FGFA contract may be signed in January. Aero India 2015 is on Feb 18th. If the contract is signed before then, they may reveal a lot more information than they usually would.
The best approach is joint ventures. We can't possibly match China dollar for dollar, so we will have to depend on other people's dollars and research combined with our own. If India were to start an independent FGFA, instead of 8 years it will take 15 or 20 years and at a much higher cost. So JVs are the fastest approach and also the most cost effective.
I mean, the US is willing to work with India to develop EMALS for our carriers. Going alone would take us years and we may actually fail.
Here's another example.
Smaller countries like France, Israel and even Ukraine are very willing to cooperate with India. With our need for numbers, even smaller nations like France will be able to compete with the US and Russia and not face issues that the Rafale has faced so far, high cost due to low numbers. So they won't hesitate in providing ToT. They know a successful project would open up more markets to them in India. The Russians started with a small project like Brahmos and then leapfrogged to MTA and FGFA. The same can happen to the other countries too. This also helps develop our own industry at reduced costs and within realistic timeframes.
Anyway, FGFA is a 40+ year project, so just as is the case with Brahmos, we may see a Mk2 version. There's plenty of time to keep up as long as costs are in control. India will have access to next gen French technologies along with Russian and Israeli technologies. So, there is a lot of redundancy there. If there are some things one country falls short on, IAF can look at another.
I can't imagine a China (or any other country) with less than a $1.5 Trillion economy being able to start a F-22 equivalent development project. But India did. By the time India is equivalent to China's economy today, we will actually be fielding an F-22 equivalent aircraft. It doesn't get better than that.
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Brumby
Major
Firstly, IMHO India doesn't appear to have a coherent strategic blue print in the pursuance of 5th gen procurement. Your reply above on a number of points affirms that view. For example, IAF states it has no interest in the F-35 because of the FGFA program but AMCA somehow continues in spite of that view. The FGFA and AMCA are almost identical in requirements except probably in timeline but somehow is irrelevant in the pursuance of both the FGFA and AMCA projects in spite of the many issues and feasibility of taking such a path.
Secondly, the bureaucrats seem to be operating from a fantasy list that is detached from reality. It wants all those goodies like immediately but yet has no realistic expectation in the maturity of such core component like VCE in the equation. It is not surprising that many of India's major programs are running way behind schedule. It almost seem like there is no accountability in deliverables and timelines.