A Bar Brother, I think you're in some kind of Indian wonderland LOL
1. You think the Rafale and PAK FA are like the best aircraft there are; otherwise, the Indian government wouldn't touch them. So your justification goes, they are the best aircraft there are or India wouldn't buy them, and India bought them because they're the best aircraft there are. That kinda circular logic is like using the Bible to prove God exists or using Harry Potter to prove that Harry Potter exists. How can the Indian Air Force be second to anyone? It's got the 2 best aircraft in the world (well, technically, it doesn't have either, and 1 has been in acquisition negotiations for like the 6th year and the second is in Russian test sites, but that's the same as having them, right?) LOL
Your argument doesn't capture the gist of what I have said.
When the F-35 was presented to the IAF, the IAF didn't bite. We don't know the reason for the rejection.
When the MMRCA evaluations happened, the IAF rejected all aircraft save for the Rafale and EF. The MoD later rejected the EF.
When the FGFA was presented to the IAF, the IAF did bite. The reasons for accepting the PAKFA design is also not clear to us.
That's all there is to it. You can make a lot of speculations based on the above points, especially while comparing to other air force evaluations around the world, like the Korean, Singapore, Swiss and Dutch air forces.
2. Rafale is not in all ways, or in an overall aspect, superior to F-35 or Rafale would have more customers and F-35 would have less. Aerodynamically, being a light delta-canard, it is probably so, but electronically, I'd wager that the F-35 is unsurpassed by any active fighter and possibly by any prototype as well (depending on how much Chinese espionage was able to take away). But being better aerodynamically but worse electronically than the F-35 is something many elite 4th generation fighters can claim. And please don't be so funny as to say the Rafale is 5.5 gen., not even any aspect of it. 5.5 gen. doesn't exist. If you say that, then you say that some Indian source said PAK FA was a gen above it, what does that make PAK FA? 6th or 6.5 gen? LOL
As far as the RNAF was concerned, the Rafale and F-35 had practically the same scores. 695 points versus 697. If the F-35's stealth was such a major game changer, I don't see why they would place it on par with Rafale, unless Rafale offered something as good. The difference between Rafale and Typhoon was a pretty good 100 points, they got 585. So why such a big difference between one 4th gen jet to another?
Technically, some of the factors that the US thinks is next gen is already planned for the PAKFA. As far as the IAF is concerned, they believe the FGFA will have avionics that are superior to the F-35 while aerodynamically performs better than the F-22. So it is up to you what number you want to use to define the PAKFA.
3. You think PAK FA and Rafale use a "different" stealth than "Western" stealth. LOL Yeah, so do the Iranian jets. So does my car.
Urm, yeah. The US has cleared for export only passive capabilities for stealth. Stealth goes beyond passive capabilities.
4. You dismiss any criticism of PAK FA saying that this is only the first shaping, that the second shaping will be improved to address them. There is no certainty with the current economic situation that there will be any improved version and if there is, how improved it can be. Thus, don't talk until that comes out. Otherwise, no aircraft has any weaknesses; the next block could always come out and is gonna be wayyyyy better, right?
Of course. But the difference between Russian and most Western programs is that while the Western aircraft have incremental block upgrades, Russians programs make major leaps during block upgrades. And PAKFA in particular is looking at block upgrades in parallel.
And I never talked about shaping of the PAKFA at all. If you have read my posts, I mentioned clearly that the exterior doesn't have to look any different from what it is today. The Su-27 and Su-35 is practically the same, very little exterior difference, but the changes are still significant to make the Su-35 a different aircraft altogether.
4. You think Russia is screwing China on the engines and trying to give India the best. So far, the best known Russian engine sent to China is the AL-31FN series III at 137 kN for the J-10B. The best one to India is the AL-31FP at 123 kN for the MKI. You think China really couldn't get AL-41F if they needed? If China wanted, it wouldn't be cheap (though it would be cheaper than going into a joint stealth fighter venture with Russia), but China could order batches of the AL-41F. I'd even go so far as to say that at a price that China could afford, it could even buy into the Izdeliye 30 engine project if it wanted to. It probably doesn't want to on either account because as an interim engine for the J-20, AL-31FN series III is fine (no need to upgrade an interim engine that will be upgraded again anyway) and there is confidence in the WS-15.
So China can literally buy into the Izd 30 project? Interesting theory considering India will hold 50% of its ownership. So you're gonna have to pay India for engine technology. The AL-31FN Series III is not the best known engine, it is basically an upgraded AL-31F engine. The best engine available from Russia today is the 117S and the 117. And the 117S is available to China anyway.
5. You think Russia's going to make 55-60 PAK FA tranche 1 for itself, upgrade for some better jets, then upgrade again to get India the best FGFA possible. Where do you get this image of Russian love for India? They've already made it clear they want you to give money and other than that, do as little as possible. Stay out of their way. They probably wouldn't even take Indian heat and humidity into maintenance consideration cus it doesn't matter in Russia. They care about Russia, not India; you think they're gonna give you the best and keep the worse ones flying around Moscow? If you knew Russia, you'd know to be worried that they don't end up offering you some bare bones monkey models, telling you to take it or leave it. All your money is gone. If you don't take these jets, go tell the police or something LOL See what they can do for you.
More interesting theories. Russia is developing the PAKFA Stage-1 for itself. IAF can always buy this version, but is willing to wait for the Stage-2. It actually doesn't make sense for us to buy the Stage-1 right away.
And these jets won't be upgraded. Like I mentioned above, the Russian block upgrades are running in parallel. So while they are developing a Su-27, they are also developing the Su-35 in parallel for introduction at a later date. They are basically making a F-16 Block 5 and F-16 Block 50 at the same time. That's how the PAKFA program is progressing. I don't know why it's hard to get this.
As for Indian heat and humidity, that will be HAL's responsibility. This is a JV after all. All the Russians jets we have work fine in heat and humidity anyway.
If you have doubts about Russian-Indian joint programs then you can read up on Brahmos and Brahmos-II.
China has dealt with Russia since Soviet times, way before India seriously engaged the Russian weapons market.
I believe India has dealt with the Russians around the same time as China did. We were the first to get the Mig-21s.
From this, the Chinese conclusion has been that you must grow your own industry; Russia does not respect you if you do not command respect. Throwing money at the Russians will not get you far; they will take it and give you the very least possible. Even with economic woes, Russia is a fantastically powerful nation and ally, but one that must be dealt with using great caution. If not, and you leave too much in their hands, give them too much trust, get lazy in protecting yourself, you will pay for it. Russians don't believe in really selling their work, only some physical machines. If you want their work, you'll need to show them you can offer something back and you deserve their reciprocation. Everything that India is doing with Russia, China could have taken the opportunity in a bigger way, but chose not to for a reason. China has more money and more expertise; they could buy more weapons and contribute greatly to any programs. I'd wager that if China offered to join PAK FA, giving more much more money and expertise than India, then PAK FA would be much stronger and better-funded. Unless there is a clash between Chinese and Russian ideas (Indians are not even at the level, neither neither in terms of technology nor in terms of investment/power, where they can have a clash in design idea against Russia), causing a freeze, the PAK FA would be a better jet than it could be now. If there is any loyalty, if Russia had to pick an ally to go forth with, it would undoubtedly be China, not for love, but for strength and usefulness to support each other. Saying that Russia wishes to do its best for India and where it once left China often wanting for more is some India dream. You will be woken up soon when the Russians call, and you will know why Chinese didn't join the Russian stealth project, why China works so hard to wean itself off Russia despite it being so much easier to just pay money and leave the weapons-making in Russian hands.
I suppose so. But it would help a lot better if you actually read up a bit more before commenting on Indian and Russian programs. You see, unlike China, India has always had better negotiation capability. The reason is as simple as we can buy Western technologies. That fact has always kept the Russians on their toes.
If you haven't already noticed, India is the first country that the US has started offering joint-development and joint-marketing projects. None of the US allies have this privilege. I wonder why.
Kendall is the top U.S. official working on the joint Defense Trade and Technology Initiative with India that has identified 17 specific defense projects.
So we are doing fine, thanks. Russia feels the Indian heat all the time.
