Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)
- Thread starter A Bar Brother
- Start date
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
A Bar Brother, I think you're in some kind of Indian wonderland LOL
1. You think the Rafale and PAK FA are like the best aircraft there are; otherwise, the Indian government wouldn't touch them. So your justification goes, they are the best aircraft there are or India wouldn't buy them, and India bought them because they're the best aircraft there are. That kinda circular logic is like using the Bible to prove God exists or using Harry Potter to prove that Harry Potter exists. How can the Indian Air Force be second to anyone? It's got the 2 best aircraft in the world (well, technically, it doesn't have either, and 1 has been in acquisition negotiations for like the 6th year and the second is in Russian test sites, but that's the same as having them, right?) LOL
2. Rafale is not in all ways, or in an overall aspect, superior to F-35 or Rafale would have more customers and F-35 would have less. Aerodynamically, being a light delta-canard, it is probably so, but electronically, I'd wager that the F-35 is unsurpassed by any active fighter and possibly by any prototype as well (depending on how much Chinese espionage was able to take away). But being better aerodynamically but worse electronically than the F-35 is something many elite 4th generation fighters can claim. And please don't be so funny as to say the Rafale is 5.5 gen., not even any aspect of it. 5.5 gen. doesn't exist. If you say that, then you say that some Indian source said PAK FA was a gen above it, what does that make PAK FA? 6th or 6.5 gen? LOL
3. You think PAK FA and Rafale use a "different" stealth than "Western" stealth. LOL Yeah, so do the Iranian jets. So does my car.
4. You dismiss any criticism of PAK FA saying that this is only the first shaping, that the second shaping will be improved to address them. There is no certainty with the current economic situation that there will be any improved version and if there is, how improved it can be. Thus, don't talk until that comes out. Otherwise, no aircraft has any weaknesses; the next block could always come out and is gonna be wayyyyy better, right?
4. You think Russia is screwing China on the engines and trying to give India the best. So far, the best known Russian engine sent to China is the AL-31FN series III at 137 kN for the J-10B. The best one to India is the AL-31FP at 123 kN for the MKI. You think China really couldn't get AL-41F if they needed? If China wanted, it wouldn't be cheap (though it would be cheaper than going into a joint stealth fighter venture with Russia), but China could order batches of the AL-41F. I'd even go so far as to say that at a price that China could afford, it could even buy into the Izdeliye 30 engine project if it wanted to. It probably doesn't want to on either account because as an interim engine for the J-20, AL-31FN series III is fine (no need to upgrade an interim engine that will be upgraded again anyway) and there is confidence in the WS-15.
5. You think Russia's going to make 55-60 PAK FA tranche 1 for itself, upgrade for some better jets, then upgrade again to get India the best FGFA possible. Where do you get this image of Russian love for India? They've already made it clear they want you to give money and other than that, do as little as possible. Stay out of their way. They probably wouldn't even take Indian heat and humidity into maintenance consideration cus it doesn't matter in Russia. They care about Russia, not India; you think they're gonna give you the best and keep the worse ones flying around Moscow? If you knew Russia, you'd know to be worried that they don't end up offering you some bare bones monkey models, telling you to take it or leave it. All your money is gone. If you don't take these jets, go tell the police or something LOL See what they can do for you.
China has dealt with Russia since Soviet times, way before India seriously engaged the Russian weapons market. From this, the Chinese conclusion has been that you must grow your own industry; Russia does not respect you if you do not command respect. Throwing money at the Russians will not get you far; they will take it and give you the very least possible. Even with economic woes, Russia is a fantastically powerful nation and ally, but one that must be dealt with using great caution. If not, and you leave too much in their hands, give them too much trust, get lazy in protecting yourself, you will pay for it. Russians don't believe in really selling their work, only some physical machines. If you want their work, you'll need to show them you can offer something back and you deserve their reciprocation. Everything that India is doing with Russia, China could have taken the opportunity in a bigger way, but chose not to for a reason. China has more money and more expertise; they could buy more weapons and contribute greatly to any programs. I'd wager that if China offered to join PAK FA, giving more much more money and expertise than India, then PAK FA would be much stronger and better-funded. Unless there is a clash between Chinese and Russian ideas (Indians are not even at the level, neither neither in terms of technology nor in terms of investment/power, where they can have a clash in design idea against Russia), causing a freeze, the PAK FA would be a better jet than it could be now. If there is any loyalty, if Russia had to pick an ally to go forth with, it would undoubtedly be China, not for love, but for strength and usefulness to support each other. Saying that Russia wishes to do its best for India and where it once left China often wanting for more is some India dream. You will be woken up soon when the Russians call, and you will know why Chinese didn't join the Russian stealth project, why China works so hard to wean itself off Russia despite it being so much easier to just pay money and leave the weapons-making in Russian hands.
1. You think the Rafale and PAK FA are like the best aircraft there are; otherwise, the Indian government wouldn't touch them. So your justification goes, they are the best aircraft there are or India wouldn't buy them, and India bought them because they're the best aircraft there are. That kinda circular logic is like using the Bible to prove God exists or using Harry Potter to prove that Harry Potter exists. How can the Indian Air Force be second to anyone? It's got the 2 best aircraft in the world (well, technically, it doesn't have either, and 1 has been in acquisition negotiations for like the 6th year and the second is in Russian test sites, but that's the same as having them, right?) LOL
2. Rafale is not in all ways, or in an overall aspect, superior to F-35 or Rafale would have more customers and F-35 would have less. Aerodynamically, being a light delta-canard, it is probably so, but electronically, I'd wager that the F-35 is unsurpassed by any active fighter and possibly by any prototype as well (depending on how much Chinese espionage was able to take away). But being better aerodynamically but worse electronically than the F-35 is something many elite 4th generation fighters can claim. And please don't be so funny as to say the Rafale is 5.5 gen., not even any aspect of it. 5.5 gen. doesn't exist. If you say that, then you say that some Indian source said PAK FA was a gen above it, what does that make PAK FA? 6th or 6.5 gen? LOL
3. You think PAK FA and Rafale use a "different" stealth than "Western" stealth. LOL Yeah, so do the Iranian jets. So does my car.
4. You dismiss any criticism of PAK FA saying that this is only the first shaping, that the second shaping will be improved to address them. There is no certainty with the current economic situation that there will be any improved version and if there is, how improved it can be. Thus, don't talk until that comes out. Otherwise, no aircraft has any weaknesses; the next block could always come out and is gonna be wayyyyy better, right?
4. You think Russia is screwing China on the engines and trying to give India the best. So far, the best known Russian engine sent to China is the AL-31FN series III at 137 kN for the J-10B. The best one to India is the AL-31FP at 123 kN for the MKI. You think China really couldn't get AL-41F if they needed? If China wanted, it wouldn't be cheap (though it would be cheaper than going into a joint stealth fighter venture with Russia), but China could order batches of the AL-41F. I'd even go so far as to say that at a price that China could afford, it could even buy into the Izdeliye 30 engine project if it wanted to. It probably doesn't want to on either account because as an interim engine for the J-20, AL-31FN series III is fine (no need to upgrade an interim engine that will be upgraded again anyway) and there is confidence in the WS-15.
5. You think Russia's going to make 55-60 PAK FA tranche 1 for itself, upgrade for some better jets, then upgrade again to get India the best FGFA possible. Where do you get this image of Russian love for India? They've already made it clear they want you to give money and other than that, do as little as possible. Stay out of their way. They probably wouldn't even take Indian heat and humidity into maintenance consideration cus it doesn't matter in Russia. They care about Russia, not India; you think they're gonna give you the best and keep the worse ones flying around Moscow? If you knew Russia, you'd know to be worried that they don't end up offering you some bare bones monkey models, telling you to take it or leave it. All your money is gone. If you don't take these jets, go tell the police or something LOL See what they can do for you.
China has dealt with Russia since Soviet times, way before India seriously engaged the Russian weapons market. From this, the Chinese conclusion has been that you must grow your own industry; Russia does not respect you if you do not command respect. Throwing money at the Russians will not get you far; they will take it and give you the very least possible. Even with economic woes, Russia is a fantastically powerful nation and ally, but one that must be dealt with using great caution. If not, and you leave too much in their hands, give them too much trust, get lazy in protecting yourself, you will pay for it. Russians don't believe in really selling their work, only some physical machines. If you want their work, you'll need to show them you can offer something back and you deserve their reciprocation. Everything that India is doing with Russia, China could have taken the opportunity in a bigger way, but chose not to for a reason. China has more money and more expertise; they could buy more weapons and contribute greatly to any programs. I'd wager that if China offered to join PAK FA, giving more much more money and expertise than India, then PAK FA would be much stronger and better-funded. Unless there is a clash between Chinese and Russian ideas (Indians are not even at the level, neither neither in terms of technology nor in terms of investment/power, where they can have a clash in design idea against Russia), causing a freeze, the PAK FA would be a better jet than it could be now. If there is any loyalty, if Russia had to pick an ally to go forth with, it would undoubtedly be China, not for love, but for strength and usefulness to support each other. Saying that Russia wishes to do its best for India and where it once left China often wanting for more is some India dream. You will be woken up soon when the Russians call, and you will know why Chinese didn't join the Russian stealth project, why China works so hard to wean itself off Russia despite it being so much easier to just pay money and leave the weapons-making in Russian hands.
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b787
Captain
thunderchief
Senior Member
Rafale is good in close combat, there is no doubt about that. I would like to hear Indian comparison between Su-30 MKI and Rafale in maneuverability . As I recall, IAF supposedly claims that Mig-29 beats Mirage-2000 in WVR. There was even article about it, but I could not find whole of it:
b787
Captain
[video=youtube;WlWQsW4ZZfQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlWQsW4ZZfQ[/video]an image is worth thousand words
i will paste photos of the magazine article in indian military news ii thread.
a must read
I'd say you nailed it here brother, and gave me a chuckle in the process, well stated, and nicely stated, good post!
oh brother, all that proves it that POWER=HEAT, but then you should have learned that in basic physics, if your F-22 will supercruise without burner, it will have the lowest IRST signature of all, particularly if you are supercruising at Mach 1.6 to Mach 1.8 at 50,000 ft plus. Lots of kool air will be cooling that hot bird off, if you want to compare under powered airplanes and crow like a little rooster, they are kool because they are not generating heat/power??? no doubt PAK-FA will generate heat, but not as much as the F-22, that's why the Brits call burner, "REHEAT!". KOOL HUH?
Oh, and don't forget to put on your "shades" if you really want to be kool like the AFB!