Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Deino]

Guys ... I think a few here should calm down a little bit !

In regard to the new prototype it is indeed T50-7, but it is a revised stage 2 static test-frame ...


BY the way here's a nice summary of the current prototypes by "Flanker" (Secret Projects Forum) a bit summarized by me:


T50-6-1: "Stage 1" T-50, aka basically as the previous flying ones ... said to be the first for India !
T50-6-2: "Stage 2" T-50 with "significant changes"
T50-7: Static test article of Stage 2 T-50.

So far it seems as if the configuration is finally settled and it doesn't appear that T-50-7 has a lot of changes, externally at least. Apparently many changes internally were necessary and these are evident by the modifications done to -1/-2 and -5).

The next flying frame should fly in spring, and at least according to one it should be T-50-6-2. Considering 6-2 is stage 2 article, one would think that they would get 6-1 flying first, which is stage 1 article and is for testing Indian AF testing. But i guess not then, for whatever reason. No idea about T-50-5. And i have stopped paying attention to Indian press long time ago, so much BS even from official sources.

It is obvious that T-50 has had problems with development, no surprise there. Things like stabs has been changed several times and the apparent evolution of more "skin" metal instead of composites and strengthening plates, T-50-1/-2 modifications to the frame and T-50-7 with heavily redesigned structure. None of which was been mentioned in specific by Indian press, which goes to show we know more than they seem to know. And the near crash of T-50-3 and the following stand down of all T-50's for a bit.

Deino

 

[A Bar Brother]

Firstly, IMHO India doesn't appear to have a coherent strategic blue print in the pursuance of 5th gen procurement. Your reply above on a number of points affirms that view. For example, IAF states it has no interest in the F-35 because of the FGFA program but AMCA somehow continues in spite of that view. The FGFA and AMCA are almost identical in requirements except probably in timeline but somehow is irrelevant in the pursuance of both the FGFA and AMCA projects in spite of the many issues and feasibility of taking such a path.

I'm not sure how the FGFA and AMCA are identical. There will be pretty large differences in capability, apart from sortie rates and cost of operation. AMCA is the same size as the Rafale while FGFA is as big as the F-22 or Su-27. AMCA's flight ceiling and range are similar to the F-35's while FGFA's range is roughly twice as much. It doesn't look like AMCA will have supercruise requirements similar to the F-22/FGFA either.

As for the clash between FGFA and F-35, the F-35 isn't a domestic program. Basically, the IAF has one foreign program and one domestic. The choice in the foreign program was between the FGFA and the F-35. The domestic program was always the AMCA.

The immediate requirement today is the Su-30 upgrade and Rafale. The future requirement is FGFA and AMCA. The FGFA has been delayed by a few years hence why the timelines clash, but that's acceptable to the IAF. When the MRCA was initially mooted back in 1999, the idea was to induct MRCA (Mirage-2000) along with the Su-30, though that didn't happen. I'm more optimistic about the FGFA's delivery schedule compared to AMCA because the Russians are already flying prototypes while AMCA is still in the project definition stage, PAKFA was in this stage a decade ago. And the fact that PAKFA development is ongoing. The Russians refer to the FGFA as PMF, Perspective Multirole Fighter, in order to differentiate between the VVS's PAKFA and ours. The FGFA was initially expected to have been inducted in 2020, but now its more in the 2022-24 region. AMCA, a few years after that.

Earlier, it was like this.
MKI = 2000
M-2000 = 2005-10
FGFA = 2020
AMCA = 2025-30

Plenty of gap between all the programs.

But now, it's like this.
MKI = 2000
Rafale = 2017
FGFA = 2024 ...catering to another year or two of delays
AMCA = 2028-30 ...great potential for delays

As long as there are more delays in signing the Rafale and FGFA deal, the more closer the programs will get to the AMCA's timeline. Rafale is actually eating into the FGFA's budget. However when FGFA and AMCA enter full rate production, Rafale will most likely not be in production anymore. MKI's production is set to end in 2019. Rafale's production for 108 jets will take 7 years from the date of signature. The option of 63 would need 3-4 more years.

Secondly, the bureaucrats seem to be operating from a fantasy list that is detached from reality. It wants all those goodies like immediately but yet has no realistic expectation in the maturity of such core component like VCE in the equation. It is not surprising that many of India's major programs are running way behind schedule. It almost seem like there is no accountability in deliverables and timelines.

It is true as far as domestic programs are concerned. As far as foreign programs are concerned, there have been delays, but the delivery timeline is more realistic along with the expectations.

Delays and cost overruns are part of military development in all countries, not just India. In India, the issue is there is no accountability after the delays and cost overruns happen, so it can get worse. Not to mention the industry itself is a lot younger than in other countries while the requirement is greater than the capabilities of the industry.

We are gonna have to grind a bit more than others in order to level up. Hand-holding helps make the process faster.

 

[A Bar Brother]

T50-6-1: "Stage 1" T-50, aka basically as the previous flying ones ... said to be the first for India !

True. The media in India also reported around two years ago that the first of the three prototypes for India will be the Stage 1. If T-50-6-1 is the last of the Stage-1 prototypes, then it makes sense that the prototype is for India.

The last prototype will come with the Izd 30 engine. This will be followed by a 3 year MKIzation stage where the aircraft will be modified for IAF's requirements.

Anyway I don't know what he means by official sources being BS.

 

[Air Force Brat]

True. The media in India also reported around two years ago that the first of the three prototypes for India will be the Stage 1.
Anyway I don't know what he means by official sources being BS.

Means he wouldn't be buying all that Russian/Indian "pixie dust"???? that would be my guess????

Personally Bar, I did miss you, but selling all that load of bull here is not gonna make for good relations with others. You just admitted that you didn't know what the criteria for picking FGFA were, so stick with telling us the truth, and don't condemn everyone else, who actually have more concrete data from our own government. ie The US gov has been very honest about the F-35 and its problems, and LockMart has worked the problems and come up with real world solutions!

If you want to luv up on the PAK-FA, be my guest, but don't make up/regurgitate "krap" (yes, I am Teutonic).

 

[A Bar Brother]

Means he wouldn't be buying all that Russian/Indian "pixie dust"???? that would be my guess????

Personally Bar, I did miss you, but selling all that load of bull here is not gonna make for good relations with others. You just admitted that you didn't know what the criteria for picking FGFA were, so stick with telling us the truth, and don't condemn everyone else, who actually have more concrete data from our own government. ie The US gov has been very honest about the F-35 and its problems, and LockMart has worked the problems and come up with real world solutions!

If you want to luv up on the PAK-FA, be my guest, but don't make up/regurgitate "krap" (yes, I am Teutonic).

Please repeat the same to the Pentagon.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Please repeat the same to the Pentagon.

NO! the USA does not need to be reminded to tell the truth! especially by the Bar Brother who can't seem to keep his own stories straight??? LOL you need to tell your own government to tell the truth!

That's my point ACE, you need to tell the truth!!! this is the Sino Defense Forum, and yes that does matter to us here!

and while we're at it, please change that avatar, that is absolutely the very last thing I want to look at on the Sino Defense forum, I mean really???

 

[A Bar Brother]

NO! the USA does not need to be reminded to tell the truth! especially by the Bar Brother who can't seem to keep his own stories straight??? LOL you need to tell your own government to tell the truth!

That's my point ACE, you need to tell the truth!!! this is the Sino Defense Forum, and yes that does matter to us here!

So I don't know the reason for why the F-35 was rejected in favor of the FGFA, and that makes it false? Please point out where I "lied."

If you are talking about lies, then LM tops the list, followed by Air Marshal Brown. If the PAKFA was 15-20 years behind the F-35, then IAF should have selected the F-35 with eyes closed. And no, the F-35 still isn't the most advanced in the world. It used to be on paper, and then it got delayed. Had the F-35 seen FOC in 2014, then it would truly have been the most advanced. People are still hung up on the "most advanced" gimmick. The avionics have stayed the same for years. The next major upgrade is slated for the decade after the next. A lot of electronics on the F-35 is yet to be upgraded before FOC. The EOTS for example is based on the Sniper XR. Newer pods have been developed and yet to be integrated on the aircraft, while the same have already been integrated on older gen aircraft. While the EOTS can be upgraded, some electronics cannot be upgraded before FOC because the cost is too prohibitive.

This is from a reliable source. And he is critical of the FGFA in this article.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Meanwhile always looking for openings to enter different segments of the Indian defence market, the Americans have been reiterating their offer of India joining the F-35 program. The Indians, however, have made it clear that they are already heavily committed to the FGFA program and the budget currently does not allow room for two foreign fifth generation fighter projects.

So, yeah. The IAF did reject the F-35.

And there's more.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 `Lightning-II' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.

"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month,'' said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.

I suppose my 'lies' are exposed now? India has politely said no to the F-35, an aircraft that is 15-20 years ahead of the PAKFA. And the decision for that most likely happened in 2007 because that's when IAF signed the first major agreement with Russia. The US also signs similar agreements before bringing a country on board the F-35 program.

You have an interesting notion of truth. You willingly believe every piece of news that LM, to borrow your word, regurgitates, while you are entirely unwilling to believe the opposite may be true even when obvious clues are available.

and while we're at it, please change that avatar, that is absolutely the very last thing I want to look at on the Sino Defense forum, I mean really???

Will do. I was getting tired of it as well.

 

[tphuang]

So I don't know the reason for why the F-35 was rejected in favor of the FGFA, and that makes it false? Please point out where I "lied."

If you are talking about lies, then LM tops the list, followed by Air Marshal Brown. If the PAKFA was 15-20 years behind the F-35, then IAF should have selected the F-35 with eyes closed. And no, the F-35 still isn't the most advanced in the world. It used to be on paper, and then it got delayed. Had the F-35 seen FOC in 2014, then it would truly have been the most advanced. People are still hung up on the "most advanced" gimmick. The avionics have stayed the same for years. The next major upgrade is slated for the decade after the next. A lot of electronics on the F-35 is yet to be upgraded before FOC. The EOTS for example is based on the Sniper XR. Newer pods have been developed and yet to be integrated on the aircraft, while the same have already been integrated on older gen aircraft. While the EOTS can be upgraded, some electronics cannot be upgraded before FOC because the cost is too prohibitive.

This is from a reliable source. And he is critical of the FGFA in this article.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So, yeah. The IAF did reject the F-35.

And there's more.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I suppose my 'lies' are exposed now? India has politely said no to the F-35, an aircraft that is 15-20 years ahead of the PAKFA. And the decision for that most likely happened in 2007 because that's when IAF signed the first major agreement with Russia. The US also signs similar agreements before bringing a country on board the F-35 program.

You have an interesting notion of truth. You willingly believe every piece of news that LM, to borrow your word, regurgitates, while you are entirely unwilling to believe the opposite may be true even when obvious clues are available.



Will do. I was getting tired of it as well.

well, you are comparing apples to oranges here. clearly India wasn't offered to be a partner nation for F-35 like it was for PAK-FA project, so there is a huge difference there.

I don't know the exact date, but the JSF partner nations were definitely in place by early 2000s, before America started to offer more advanced equipments to India. So then the choice is whether you want to wait for a production slot for F-35 or go for JV with PAK-FA. My guess is that the discussion for JV with Russia started before F-35 became any option with India.

I also deleted manqiangrexue's post, since that was more like a personal attack.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Better read those rules again because you are treading on dangerous ice here.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/announcements/sinodefence-forum-rules-behavior-6741.html

- TUP

 

[Air Force Brat]

So I don't know the reason for why the F-35 was rejected in favor of the FGFA, and that makes it false? Please point out where I "lied."

If you are talking about lies, then LM tops the list, followed by Air Marshal Brown. If the PAKFA was 15-20 years behind the F-35, then IAF should have selected the F-35 with eyes closed. And no, the F-35 still isn't the most advanced in the world. It used to be on paper, and then it got delayed. Had the F-35 seen FOC in 2014, then it would truly have been the most advanced. People are still hung up on the "most advanced" gimmick. The avionics have stayed the same for years. The next major upgrade is slated for the decade after the next. A lot of electronics on the F-35 is yet to be upgraded before FOC. The EOTS for example is based on the Sniper XR. Newer pods have been developed and yet to be integrated on the aircraft, while the same have already been integrated on older gen aircraft. While the EOTS can be upgraded, some electronics cannot be upgraded before FOC because the cost is too prohibitive.

This is from a reliable source. And he is critical of the FGFA in this article.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So, yeah. The IAF did reject the F-35.

And there's more.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I suppose my 'lies' are exposed now? India has politely said no to the F-35, an aircraft that is 15-20 years ahead of the PAKFA. And the decision for that most likely happened in 2007 because that's when IAF signed the first major agreement with Russia. The US also signs similar agreements before bringing a country on board the F-35 program.

You have an interesting notion of truth. You willingly believe every piece of news that LM, to borrow your word, regurgitates, while you are entirely unwilling to believe the opposite may be true even when obvious clues are available.



Will do. I was getting tired of it as well.

Thank you Bar Brother for changing your AVATAR, new one is KOOL!

#2 I did not and have not called you a liar, I am simply requesting, please, no need for you to Label LM, Air Marshal Brown, et al "liars", that is very dishonest of you, especially when you are attempting to sell that Russian Snake Oil, drink all of it you want, just don't expect those of us who are serious on this forum to drink it with you????

#3 I never said I believe everything LM/Pentagon says or writes, I honestly do NOT think they are intentionally lying most of the time. If you don't agree with their assertions fine, say so, but show a little more respect.

#4 You will NOT find any thing that I "lied" about, I will not do it, you will not find anything I mislead anyone about, including to you, you won't, because I won't!

#5 and finally, I do trust LockMart, they have a history, my Dad flew the C-130A-C-130E, the C-130 remains a very versatile and practical airlifter, and my DAD was an IP in the C-130 and an Air Force Officer with TOP SECRET security clearance, I do know a few things BB, and I'm not going to compromise the Security of the United States to play on the Sino Defense Forum, but everything, and I do mean everything I write here is true to the very best of my knowledge...
You Sir have my Word on that, that's all I'm asking you for Bruda- lets stick to what we know, and if our opinions are different-lets both make our best and friendly honest effort to tell the truth.

I know you can, and I believe you will! so lets pinky-swear and then do our best to tell the truth here about PAK-FA/FGFA, on the F-35 about the F-35, and yes I do like PAK-FA, and yes it is a Flanker, and I LOVE Flankers, I could have been "Flanker Fan", but decided AFB was more honest.