Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Air Force Brat]

Gettin' tired, Brat? We should probably just leave Bar alone cus unlike the Olympics, war doesn't come around every 4 years to shut people up from talkin' smack. Otherwise, people like Bar would get away with saying India had the best athletes in the world too LOL.

That's why they usually congregate in forums where the conversation goes like this: "Awww, look at those specs! FGFA's the winner by far." "Yeah, that's crazy what we can do when we put our minds to it! Better than F-22, F-35, Junk J-20, etc...!" "Yeah, but I feel like we got ripped off. We did all the work and Russians didn't even contribute." "Yeah, that's ok; they're not as smart as us so we'll have to drag them along." "Did you know they did a computer simulation and FGFA wiped out every other fighter and conquered the world without loss?" "Yeah, that's cus during the evaluation, it scored 9945 while F-22 had 6398, F-35 had 3812, and J-20 scored 14. Those are fact, man." "Man, the US better step up its game or we're gonna run them over!" "Yeah, but there's nothing they can do about it cus we got both FGFA and Rafale, the 2 best fighters in the world! What can they do?" "They can give up!" "Yeahhhh, bro!" LOLOL

In general, arguing with an Indian person is like fighting a drunk hobo; no matter what happens, the next day he's gonna say he whooped your butt and just by taking him seriously and putting your hands on him, you've lost.

I'd prefer to call a truce, and just lets tell the truth, I have several Indian friends who have quite literally given me the cloths off their back, I have a Seiko that an Indian brother insisted I take, after I gave him my Raybans, and a nice Benchmade knife as a going away present. So lets just be Gentlemen, and brothers, and try to "chill out, and I surely don't want to see you get moderated bro, really we're all big boys, so let "shake hands" and go forth as equals and start the New Year off with a declaration and desire to make every post the truth, and to be kind in the process. For you and Bar Brother, I'm going to offer an "authorized and official" the genuine article Air Force Brat OFFICIAL APOLOGY for degrading this discussion and take the blame, I did get a little cranked off, and down hill she goes.

Lets bring this discussion back up to the BD Popeye standard, he's watching us you know, and I know he can squeeze your noggin from where-ever his present location may be... right TP?

Happy New Year Gentlemen!

 

[manqiangrexue]

I'd prefer to call a truce, and just lets tell the truth, I have several Indian friends who have quite literally given me the cloths off their back, I have a Seiko that an Indian brother insisted I take, after I gave him my Raybans, and a nice Benchmade knife as a going away present. So lets just be Gentlemen, and brothers, and try to "chill out, and I surely don't want to see you get moderated bro, really we're all big boys, so let "shake hands" and go forth as equals and start the New Year off with a declaration and desire to make every post the truth, and to be kind in the process. For you and Bar Brother, I'm going to offer an "authorized and official" the genuine article Air Force Brat OFFICIAL APOLOGY for degrading this discussion and take the blame, I did get a little cranked off, and down hill she goes.

Lets bring this discussion back up to the BD Popeye standard, he's watching us you know, and I know he can squeeze your noggin from where-ever his present location may be... right TP?

Happy New Year Gentlemen!

LOL, Brat! Biggest person I've seen on any forum hands down. Happy Holidays!

 

[A Bar Brother]

well, you are comparing apples to oranges here. clearly India wasn't offered to be a partner nation for F-35 like it was for PAK-FA project, so there is a huge difference there.

I don't know the exact date, but the JSF partner nations were definitely in place by early 2000s, before America started to offer more advanced equipments to India. So then the choice is whether you want to wait for a production slot for F-35 or go for JV with PAK-FA. My guess is that the discussion for JV with Russia started before F-35 became any option with India.

Both apparently happened during similar times. LM has been presenting the F-35 to the armed forces since 2005 and Russia has been negotiating with India since that time. Both were doing the same thing, conducting meetings, giving presentations etc. The IAF could have opted for the F-35 anytime before 2010. Joint development wouldn't have stood in the way of the F-35 was 15-20 years ahead of the PAKFA.

While IAF opted for the FGFA, the navy decided to wait it out for the F-35, the B version in particular because of its STOBAR capability. Now they should be open for C too, because it is confirmed that the next carrier will be CATOBAR.

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"We have received the Request for Information (RFI) from the Navy seeking information about the F-35 aircraft, which are capable of taking off from aircraft carriers. We are going to offer our aircraft to them," Lockheed Martin vice president Orville Prins said.

So why did the IAF choose the FGFA (in 2010) while the IN sent out an RFI (in 2009) for the F-35? The reason could be as simple as the FGFA is being designed as an air superiority aircraft, which the F-35 isn't, while the navy wants CATOBAR carrier compatibility, which the FGFA isn't.

So we may still see the F-35 in Indian service, and this potentially throws your joint development argument out the window. If joint development was really important, then the navy would have jumped at the chance to have a N-FGFA made in India, rather than just outright buy or license produce the F-35 or the Rafale. Now, all of LM's efforts in India are focused on the navy's requirement. It is unlikely for the navy to pick the N-FGFA because it won't be CATOBAR capable. The navy's requirement could be as significant as the IAF's MRCA tender too.

Even if India was offered a partner position, I doubt the US would have provided enough ToT. Ashton Carter says they are changing their bureaucracy to accommodate Indian requirements for ToT. It is yet to be seen if they will actually deliver. So there are a lot of non-technical reasons also, including agreements like CISMOA and LOA. However it is possible that even though we have not been part of the F-35's initial development, we could be part of the future MLUs of the F-35 while definitely being a part of the MKIzation of the F-35. With enough orders, it may be possible to get a much larger production workshare than other partners. A Rafale type license production for the F-35 in India will still be a significant boost to the aviation industry in India, especially if the lead integrator is a private company like TATA or Reliance. Let's not forget India could be a part of the two-seat F-35 program too. That could make it as significant as the FGFA, maybe more. And Israel should have no problems with that.

Good things may happen between India and the US in the future.

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Ashton Carter, credited with launching a path-breaking initiative to enhance defence ties with India, is likely to be President Barack Obama's pick for the next US Defence Secretary.

Lots of interesting information here. Some important snippets have been posted.

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Carter said a tie-up had also been proposed between US and Indian defence researchers. He said his government would “incentivise” this with priority funding. The US has such arrangements only with the UK and Australia.

Washington has also indicated that it has made changes to its policy on high-technology exports to favour India exceptionally. This would give India an assurance on transfer of technology before entering into licence-production agreements.

The new proposal was being made to no other country but to India, said Carter, for the co-development of the “next generation” of Javelin missiles for domestic consumption as well as for international buyers (exports).

So all is not lost for the F-35 in India.

I also deleted manqiangrexue's post, since that was more like a personal attack.

Thanks.

 

[Air Force Brat]

LOL, Brat! Biggest person I've seen on any forum hands down. Happy Holidays!

Thank you brother, I take this as a high compliment, I'm not always perfectly honest myself, why I need a real Jesus everyday, might as well tell the truth now, before its too late???? LOL I know the Bar Brother will up his game as well, and I hope you'll edit your previous post, I know you to be a better man! BD Popeye is a great example to us all, and a very sincere Christian, as is Jeff Head and many others here on the Sino Defense Forum, they have all reminded me to mind my manners. God Bless each of you this coming year, and God Bless our respective nations with Peace and good will toward our fellow man. Happy New Year Gentlemen!

 

[A Bar Brother]

Thank you Bar Brother for changing your AVATAR, new one is KOOL!

#2 I did not and have not called you a liar, I am simply requesting, please, no need for you to Label LM, Air Marshal Brown, et al "liars", that is very dishonest of you, especially when you are attempting to sell that Russian Snake Oil, drink all of it you want, just don't expect those of us who are serious on this forum to drink it with you????

#3 I never said I believe everything LM/Pentagon says or writes, I honestly do NOT think they are intentionally lying most of the time. If you don't agree with their assertions fine, say so, but show a little more respect.

#4 You will NOT find any thing that I "lied" about, I will not do it, you will not find anything I mislead anyone about, including to you, you won't, because I won't!

#5 and finally, I do trust LockMart, they have a history, my Dad flew the C-130A-C-130E, the C-130 remains a very versatile and practical airlifter, and my DAD was an IP in the C-130 and an Air Force Officer with TOP SECRET security clearance, I do know a few things BB, and I'm not going to compromise the Security of the United States to play on the Sino Defense Forum, but everything, and I do mean everything I write here is true to the very best of my knowledge...
You Sir have my Word on that, that's all I'm asking you for Bruda- lets stick to what we know, and if our opinions are different-lets both make our best and friendly honest effort to tell the truth.

I know you can, and I believe you will! so lets pinky-swear and then do our best to tell the truth here about PAK-FA/FGFA, on the F-35 about the F-35, and yes I do like PAK-FA, and yes it is a Flanker, and I LOVE Flankers, I could have been "Flanker Fan", but decided AFB was more honest.

Glad you like my avatar.

Anyway, all of this started when I pointed out the F-35 isn't the world's most advanced and that it isn't an air superiority fighter. So what I'm really bashing is not the F-35, but LM for their marketing.

 

[Equation]

Glad you like my avatar.

Anyway, all of this started when I pointed out the F-35 isn't the world's most advanced and that it isn't an air superiority fighter. So what I'm really bashing is not the F-35, but LM for their marketing.

What is it that you don't like or disapprove of LM marketing? All companies (weather it's weapons or cheese) has advertised their products to the available market out there. Of course there would be some exaggeration, but it is up to the buyer to use their best judgement and common sense whether are to buy or not to buy.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Glad you like my avatar.

Anyway, all of this started when I pointed out the F-35 isn't the world's most advanced and that it isn't an air superiority fighter. So what I'm really bashing is not the F-35, but LM for their marketing.

Hey they've got great marketing, you and I should be so sharp, but they also deliver a very fine product, C-130, F-22, and they ARE working very hard to make the F-35 the airplane everyone, maybe even India hopes it will be. I am very profoundly sorry for my poor attitude, I work very hard to play well with others, and I did bring this discussion down, hope you will help me to pick it back up to the professional level, and I promise to be more collegial in the future, we are all the same here, we love this stuff, and I know most of us pray that our nations will be strong and peaceful!

Hows that for a run-on sentence, and I'm a teacher??? oh well, I'll keep working on it. Best wishes to all of you in the coming New Year, and for my many Sino Defense friends, you continue to give me hope for the future, hope I can share a little of that back toward each of you!

 

[Air Force Brat]

What is it that you don't like or disapprove of LM marketing? All companies (weather it's weapons or cheese) has advertised their products to the available market out there. Of course there would be some exaggeration, but it is up to the buyer to use their best judgement and common sense whether are to buy or not to buy.

Yes, my second favorite Latin expression, "Caveat Emptor", "let the buyer beware",,,, of course my favorite Latin expression is "Carpe Diem!" or "seize the DAY!" Hey I tried to send you a PM bro, but your box is full, mine prolly is too?

 

[Equation]

Yes, my second favorite Latin expression, "Caveat Emptor", "let the buyer beware",,,, of course my favorite Latin expression is "Carpe Diem!" or "seize the DAY!" Hey I tried to send you a PM bro, but your box is full, mine prolly is too?

Try again, I've just cleared my box.

 

[A Bar Brother]

What is it that you don't like or disapprove of LM marketing? All companies (weather it's weapons or cheese) has advertised their products to the available market out there. Of course there would be some exaggeration, but it is up to the buyer to use their best judgement and common sense whether are to buy or not to buy.

Hey, if you want to say you have the best cheese in the world, go ahead and say it. But if you also say that your cheese cures cancer, you will find a skeptic.

LM has made very absurd claims that insult the reader's intelligence.

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