Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[A Bar Brother]

You are completely wrong here. There is no indication that IAF was ever offered anything in F-35 program what it has been offered with by the Russians in PAK-FA. Any such talk is pure speculation on your end. If USAF or LM decides to develop a two seat version, it will be up to their own perogative. The idea that the pentagon will allow a foreign air force to dictate the terms in its top program is ludicrous. If the Pentagon decides it wants to chop any of the F-35 variants today, the only people it will have to answer to is the congress. So, stop speculating that you can become a partner nation in JSF. Actually provide actual physical evidence that says US has offered India level 1 partnership terms that's even better than what Britain (it's long time top ally) has gotten.

You can treat it as speculation, but in 2010, even IAF being part of FGFA was speculation.

If you had asked me in 2009 if Russia would offer a 50-50 partnership in the FGFA, even I would have laughed it off. I had always expected us to buy any Russian 5th gen fighter, but not to the point where we will be jointly owning it with Russia. So had you said India and Russia will jointly develop the FGFA with joint ownership in 2009, I'd say you're completely wrong and that Russia would not allow India to dictate terms and that Russia is answerable to Putin. I would ask for evidence too.

With the huge delays to the F-35, I'm pretty sure LM and Pentagon will welcome Indian investment into the project even today. At least you will agree that the possibility exists. The fate of the two-seat is unknown today, so the possibility of joint development exists. It could all be linked to the next carrier we are building, along with the technologies for it. And there's plenty of time for such a decision. Whatever aircraft the navy is going for next could be a pretty big deal in the long run with options and extra orders.

And I don't see why India will have to dictate terms to the US about the two-seat. Mutual understanding is a better term. It is the same between Russia and India.

However, as of today, it is true that the Americans haven't offered any joint development for the F-35. "Maybe" it was the primary factor for the Russians to clinch the FGFA deal. But the fact that IAF decided to opt for the 3rd or 4th best aircraft in the world against the 2nd best is quite intriguing, especially considering the F-35 is advertized as the world's best. So there is far more to it than just joint development.

Just because neither of us have an answer, we have to resort to speculations. So, it's not just me speculating.

 

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However, as of today, it is true that the Americans haven't offered any joint development for the F-35. "Maybe" it was the primary factor for the Russians to clinch the FGFA deal. But the fact that IAF decided to opt for the 3rd or 4th best aircraft in the world against the 2nd best is quite intriguing, especially considering the F-35 is advertized as the world's best. So there is far more to it than just joint development.

Just because neither of us have an answer, we have to resort to speculations. So, it's not just me speculating.

So...can we speculate perhaps because the IAF could not or will not afford to handle the expensive maintenance that the F-35 required? This could be the reason why the IAF bypass the F-35 and go for the lesser maintenance requirement instead?

 

[tphuang]

You can treat it as speculation, but in 2010, even IAF being part of FGFA was speculation.

If you had asked me in 2009 if Russia would offer a 50-50 partnership in the FGFA, even I would have laughed it off. I had always expected us to buy any Russian 5th gen fighter, but not to the point where we will be jointly owning it with Russia. So had you said India and Russia will jointly develop the FGFA with joint ownership in 2009, I'd say you're completely wrong and that Russia would not allow India to dictate terms and that Russia is answerable to Putin. I would ask for evidence too.

With the huge delays to the F-35, I'm pretty sure LM and Pentagon will welcome Indian investment into the project even today. At least you will agree that the possibility exists. The fate of the two-seat is unknown today, so the possibility of joint development exists. It could all be linked to the next carrier we are building, along with the technologies for it. And there's plenty of time for such a decision. Whatever aircraft the navy is going for next could be a pretty big deal in the long run with options and extra orders.

And I don't see why India will have to dictate terms to the US about the two-seat. Mutual understanding is a better term. It is the same between Russia and India.

However, as of today, it is true that the Americans haven't offered any joint development for the F-35. "Maybe" it was the primary factor for the Russians to clinch the FGFA deal. But the fact that IAF decided to opt for the 3rd or 4th best aircraft in the world against the 2nd best is quite intriguing, especially considering the F-35 is advertized as the world's best. So there is far more to it than just joint development.

Just because neither of us have an answer, we have to resort to speculations. So, it's not just me speculating.

Actually, I wasn't that surprised that Russia offered co-development of PAK-FA to IAF. If they couldn't get Indians to bite, they would've tried to get funding from China. At this point, there is no chance the Pentagon would offer partnership to India at the level that was promised by the Russians. If a two-seater gets developed and I don't see why it would not be, it would be based primarily on USAF/USN requirements and only secondarily based on the desires of export partners. That is far from what Russia has promised. I have not even heard a sniff that would suggest such level of cooperation is offered to India. One project helps India's domestic industry, the other does not. It's a very big difference. Your speculations have no basis at all.

 

[b787]

I don't get your point at all. What's the difference between Su-27 and Mig-29 then? Both are air superiority aircraft.

the difference is their mission; one is a front line fighter the other a escort fighter, range and armament both are different

 

[Brumby]

Cost is relative to the timeframe in which the aircraft were inducted. Irrespective of the fact that the AMCA will be an expensive program, it will still be cheaper than the FGFA. While the FGFA is set to cost $11 Billion or more in total to develop, the cost of the AMCA's development is much lower (ADA wants $2.5 Billion and GTRE wants around $2 Billion for the engine), however India will be footing the entire bill.

Unit costs shouldn't be taken into consideration. Lifecycle costs are more important.

The projected cost for both the FGFA and AMCA program in my view is totally unrealistic. The track record of major military programs around the world is consistent in one aspect - they overspend, under deliver and come in way behind schedule. Every succeeding generation has seen cost increase in multiples of 3. This is a verifiable fact based on history of aircraft development. 5th gen. programs are incredibly expensive. The only 5th gen. programs that we can benchmark that has a decent spending history and not based on projected claims are the F-22 and F-35 program. Their respective development cost is around $35 billion and $56 billion.

In all honesty, I would not know how to appropriately describe claims of needing only $4.5 billion for the AMCA program.

 

[Air Force Brat]

The projected cost for both the FGFA and AMCA program in my view is totally unrealistic. The track record of major military programs around the world is consistent in one aspect - they overspend, under deliver and come in way behind schedule. Every succeeding generation has seen cost increase in multiples of 3. This is a verifiable fact based on history of aircraft development. 5th gen. programs are incredibly expensive. The only 5th gen. programs that we can benchmark that has a decent spending history and not based on projected claims are the F-22 and F-35 program. Their respective development cost is around $35 billion and $56 billion.

In all honesty, I would not know how to appropriately describe claims of needing only $4.5 billion for the AMCA program.

"California Dreamin" should do it master Brumby== can you hear it playing in your head??? Brat

Remember kids do not forget the shades if ya wanna be KOOL??? really I got me some UV protection baby, looks good with my tin-foil hat????LOL!

 

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The projected cost for both the FGFA and AMCA program in my view is totally unrealistic. The track record of major military programs around the world is consistent in one aspect - they overspend, under deliver and come in way behind schedule. Every succeeding generation has seen cost increase in multiples of 3. This is a verifiable fact based on history of aircraft development. 5th gen. programs are incredibly expensive. The only 5th gen. programs that we can benchmark that has a decent spending history and not based on projected claims are the F-22 and F-35 program. Their respective development cost is around $35 billion and $56 billion.

In all honesty, I would not know how to appropriately describe claims of needing only $4.5 billion for the AMCA program.

That's why I keep mentioning...IT'S ALL ABOUT THE PROGRAM. There's only two countries in this world that can afford to sustain such an expensive 5th generation fighter program (100% all on their own) and that's the US and China. And as for now ONLY the US can do both a fighters, and bombers program. Although China is in the works for it's stealth bomber program, we're still waiting for pics and videos, hopefully soon.

 

[b787]

That's why I keep mentioning...IT'S ALL ABOUT THE PROGRAM. There's only two countries in this world that can afford to sustain such an expensive 5th generation fighter program (100% all on their own) and that's the US and China. And as for now ONLY the US can do both a fighters, and bombers program. Although China is in the works for it's stealth bomber program, we're still waiting for pics and videos, hopefully soon.

JSC "United Engine Corporation" (UEC) initiated the establishment of the engine for the PAK DA (PAK DA), said "Interfax" referring to the director general Vladislav Masalova UEC.
- Signed a contract with JSC "Tupolev" on through the design of the engine for long-term strategic missile PAK DA - said at the presentation Masalov development strategy UEC until 2025.

According to the head of the corporation, the engine is designed with the expectation that the PAK DA made its first flight in 2019. Work on the schematic design of the power plant is scheduled for completion in late 2016. In the budget for the program to create PAK DA engine provided 32 billion rubles.

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Companies in United Engine Corporation is developing so-called "engine of the second stage" for the Sukhoi PAK FA (PAK FA), informs "Interfax" referring to the director general of the corporation Vladislav Masalova.

"Work on the creation of the engine of the second stage are conducted so as to ensure that in 2017 the first flight of the PAK FA with the engines of the second stage of the initial resource", - said V. Masalov. He noted that the engines of the second stage, which will replace the engines "Article 117", which is now equipped with a fifth-generation fighter will provide supersonic cruise flight.

"The main parameters of the engine of the second stage will be 15-18% more efficient than the characteristics of the engine used today", - said V. Masalov. Designing the power plant for the project PAK FA is carried out in two stages. On the first machine was "the product 117» ─ turbojet engine AL-41F1, related power plant AL-41F1S for the Su-35S ("the product 117C").

The engine of the second stage, also known as "article 30" (previously it is also called in the press "article 129", it later became clear that under these codes takes only a fraction of the power plant) at the momentrazrabatyvaetsya. The power plant will be different from the AL-41F1 improved fuel efficiency and lower life cycle costs, the newspaper writes

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Developer: "UMPO" (OKB A. Cradles)
Key Features:
Overall dimensions:
length - 4990;
inlet diameter - 932;
Parameters in terrestrial conditions:
thrust at full forced mode, kg - 14500;
thrust at maximum capacity, kg - 8800.
Installed on the Su-35S.
AL-41F-1S - Aircraft Bypass Turbofan engine with afterburner and thrust vector control (UHT) 4 ++ generation, is one of the engine options "Article 117".

AL-41F1S different from the AL-31F increased thrust (14,500 kg vs. 12,500), large TBO (4000 hours against 1000), reduced fuel consumption, controlled vserakursny thrust vector and allow the aircraft to develop a supersonic speed without afterburner, which is one of the main requirements for the fifth generation fighter.

In February 2008, "Saturn" reported completion of the test engine AL-41F1S that allowed to begin flight tests of the aircraft Su-35S.

February 20, 2008 have been successfully tested Su-35S engines AL-41F1S.

August 9, 2010 JSC "Ufa Engine Industrial Association" deliveries beginning of AL-41F1S for multi-purpose fighter Su-35s, built in KnAAZ Yu.A. Gagarin, until 2015 a contract to supply 96 engines for 2015-2020 is planned to purchase another 96 engines

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JSC "United Engine Corporation" (UEC) initiated the establishment of the engine for the PAK DA (PAK DA), said "Interfax" referring to the director general Vladislav Masalova UEC.
- Signed a contract with JSC "Tupolev" on through the design of the engine for long-term strategic missile PAK DA - said at the presentation Masalov development strategy UEC until 2025.

According to the head of the corporation, the engine is designed with the expectation that the PAK DA made its first flight in 2019. Work on the schematic design of the power plant is scheduled for completion in late 2016. In the budget for the program to create PAK DA engine provided 32 billion rubles.

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Yes....but...the article was written BEFORE economic sanctions wrecked havoc on Russian economy. We have to wait and see if the PAK DA is still a go.

 

[A Bar Brother]

So...can we speculate perhaps because the IAF could not or will not afford to handle the expensive maintenance that the F-35 required? This could be the reason why the IAF bypass the F-35 and go for the lesser maintenance requirement instead?

Cost shouldn't have been a factor. That's because the time we are talking about everybody thought the F-35 would come at $65 Million and will see a production run of 3500 aircraft from just the partners while being as cheap as a F-16 to operate.