Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Brumby]

ABar,

I said I was done on this and I am relating to the specific conversation on transparency wth the PAK-FA program. This post is generally to illustrate how ridiculus a conversation can become and the contortionist and facts changing manner you have demonstrated to salvage a position.

If it isn't apparent even until now I would like to point out to you an obvious fact and is that my beef in an earlier post (#397) that started our conversation was simply about Russian transparency over the T-50 program. You wanted to interject and went through the whole nine yards about Indian transparency of defence program. It wasn't necessary because it wasn't the topic of conversation in the first place. Just check the facts regarding my recent postings and also the fact that in no single instance did I even mentioned India in any of my reply.

However ypu went through the whole shebang of justifying your reasoning which I obligated by pointing out your misrepresentation. For the record, below was your contortionist effort to shift emphasis, meaning and definition.

F-35 is not a strategic program for the USAF, it is an export project.

I debunked that. You then changed emphasis.

Let me rephrase. The F-35 isn't a black program. The FGFA is a black program.

I rebutted that you then decided to change meaning.

You are confusing US black programs to Indian black programs. You are expecting the same levels of secrecy when the Indian
industrial complex isn't as capable.

I wasn't expecting anything of India nor was it ever mentioned. Just check the facts contained in my postings.

Please quit it. I know the difference between strategic programs and non-strategic programs in India. You clearly don't.

I hope it is obvious by now that reference to strategic program, black box program and India was all of your own creation when you interjected. You created a conversation on matters not related to Russsian transparency and ended up talking to your ownself. I just obliged by pointing out your misrepresentations of facts and meaning. Nothng more.

 

[A Bar Brother]

ABar,

I said I was done on this and I am relating to the specific conversation on transparency wth the PAK-FA program. This post is generally to illustrate how ridiculus a conversation can become and the contortionist and facts changing manner you have demonstrated to salvage a position.

If it isn't apparent even until now I would like to point out to you an obvious fact and is that my beef in an earlier post (#397) that started our conversation was simply about Russian transparency over the T-50 program. You wanted to interject and went through the whole nine yards about Indian transparency of defence program. It wasn't necessary because it wasn't the topic of conversation in the first place. Just check the facts regarding my recent postings and also the fact that in no single instance did I even mentioned India in any of my reply.

However ypu went through the whole shebang of justifying your reasoning which I obligated by pointing out your misrepresentation. For the record, below was your contortionist effort to shift emphasis, meaning and definition.


I debunked that. You then changed emphasis.


I rebutted that you then decided to change meaning.


I wasn't expecting anything of India nor was it ever mentioned. Just check the facts contained in my postings.


I hope it is obvious by now that reference to strategic program, black box program and India was all of your own creation when you interjected. You created a conversation on matters not related to Russsian transparency and ended up talking to your ownself. I just obliged by pointing out your misrepresentations of facts and meaning. Nothng more.

I didn't misrepresent any facts, nor did you debunk anything. It is your inability to understand the nature of a strategic program that made you write what you did. It is you who don't remember what you were talking about.

This is what you posted.

I think the whole point lost in this is that the F-35 program has been highly transparent about the nature of the fire incident; the probable cause; and ongoing status on resolution. There is no equivalence on the PAK-FA problem as so many posts earlier were just on whether the Russians actually repaired the plane let alone the cause and resolution.

You were directly comparing a program for export to a program that is of greater strategic value to the respective countries. You were trying to bring "equivalence" to black programs over an export program as though the US is on a different pedestal.

 

[b787]

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Model of the new Russian aircraft carrier, represented FSUE "Krylov State Research Center." February 2015.
Source: Aleksander Emelianenko / WG

In St. Petersburg, developed the concept of the new Russian aircraft carrier

Leaders Krylovskogo center, a little consultation, decided to give up our request and personally removed from declassified last preliminary design protection - transparent prism of Plexiglas. Almost two-meter layout carrier appeared in every detail.

Deputy Director General of FSUE "Krylov State Research Center" Valery Polyakov almost immediately made it clear that this is not a project, as a conceptual model, combining the latest scientific and technological developments with the expectations and practical needs of the Navy. Essentially it is a starting base that defines the future face of multifunctional design parameters of the ship and its key systems: energy, weapons, life support, targeting, navigation, communication.



Model of the new Russian aircraft carrier, represented FSUE "Krylov State Research Center." February 2015.
Source: Aleksander Emelianenko / WG

The first thing that caught my eye - the minimum amount of deck superstructures with clearly increase the working space of the deck. Her two springboard - large and smaller, and therefore - two areas takeoff. And yet - attached to the stern and bow of the aircraft carrier planes and helicopters, at least five different types. They are clearly more than can be seen on the deck of "Admiral Kuznetsov" or converted in Russia for the Indian Navy aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya".

Designed in Krylovskaya scientific center concept new multipurpose aircraft carrier, according to the head of that group Valentina Belonenko provides accommodation on board up to 100 aircraft. And he managed to optimize the hull so that water resistance decreased by 20 percent. This alone - a significant savings of energy, the ability to increase the speed and autonomy.

On such an aircraft carrier, made it clear Valentin Belonenko, can take off airplanes and helicopters of the latest generation even in a storm. For airplanes provided not only jumps, but also catapult. And under the flight deck and superstructure optimized - the latest, with the combined power plant, an effective missile and electronic equipment.

But all this is still in the layout and model samples. Jump on the stage of preliminary design to the actual design, and then to the construction of the first truly Russian aircraft carrier will be possible only after when all the current conceptual design will be adopted and approved by the customer in the face of the Navy, and the state can find the means and the will to embody daring plans .

Doctor of Technical Sciences Valery Polovinkin, who for many years taught at the St. Petersburg "korabelke", and now an adviser to the General Director Krylovskaya center, closely following the developments in the global shipbuilding industry. And he is convinced that the conceptual design - it's not just a way to avoid unnecessary expenses due to an incorrect choice, organizational and technical errors in the creation of expensive systems. This is the surest route to the chosen target and guarantee that at some point, do not find yourself at a dead end, or on the roadside.

After the establishment of an aircraft carrier, reminds Polovinkin this huge sum even by the standards of such countries as Russia. They can be saved if the key decisions precede the conceptual design stage.

 

[A Bar Brother]

The F-35 program is far more vast and ambitious program than the FGFA and the US has tons of money to develop it ALL BY THEMSELVES (just like China with their J-20 and possible FC/J -31). The FGFA program is affected because the program is funded by two countries and coordinating it and sharing tech is challenging in itself for such a highly expensive project.

The Russians can run the PAKFA program by themselves. They don't need India for it. Most of the work is being done by the Russians, as you already know.

As for this statement,

The F-35 program is far more vast and ambitious program than the FGFA

The F-35 is indeed more vast than the FGFA, but it is nowhere as ambitious. The only aspect similar between the FGFA and F-35 is the avionics. And even that is older avionics compared to next gen avionics planned for the FGFA. You can say the PAKFA Stage 1 is similar to F-35 in terms of avionics, but even that's only in some aspects. Even the Su-30MKI may come with more advanced avionics. Apart from that the FGFA carries more weapons, has more range, is more maneuverable, is supercruise capable, has more altitude options and is a much larger aircraft with more onboard electrical power.

The FGFA is expected to have an ADVENT class engine, smart skins, complete real time networking with satellites and other air assets and individually meant to act as AEW&Cs. All these are features of the American 6th gen program. The ADVENT class engine is expected to be fully functional by 2019 and is the principle difference between the Stage 1 and Stage 2 PAKFA programs.

This will probably give you an idea for what's planned.

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DARPA is working on the smart skins concept with nanophotonics for the 6th gen program.

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So the difference is while KRET will be introducing this on the PAKFA in the next few years, DARPA will only do so after 2030 on their 6th gen program.

Future development could see the FGFA with a wideband radar system by 2022-23, instead of the X band radar.

The PAKFA is already flying with DIRCM. The F-35 is expected to get it only by 2025 with the Block 5.
The KS-O:

And one more thing. While the F-35 has standardized on GaAs for all of its emitters, the PAKFA will be standardizing on GaN, something that's planned as 6th gen tech for the US.

Something of note for what's planned in missile seekers.

The K-77M's radar seeker is said to manage a radar lock at 40 miles.

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You will have to use a translator.

The greatest progress in the development of RFCs W-121 is associated with bringing to a state of mass production of the main element of radar AFAR - transceiver modules. The production of such modules - broadband amplifiers in the microwave for PPR, is a monolithic integrated circuit type GaN - established at FSUE "Scientific and Industrial Enterprise" Istok "(Fryazino, Moscow region), a member of the holding" Roselektronika. "

Development of microwave modules for the N036 radar was carried out on NPP "Istok" since 2003. On the basis of powerful transistors and monolithic inte integrated circuits microwave before acceptance were developed microwave modules for active phased array of bedinyayuschie in all the transceiver ne Reda TV antenna circuit pit of, cooling system and digital governance.

Currently, the NPP "Istok" launched the first in line for Russian industrial output transistors and monolithic integrated circuits microwave. For our country, it was a breakthrough, because four years ago, monolithic microwave integrated circuits produced only single specimens. The launch of this line will start series production of sub-modules for microwave radar AFAR. Established in NPP "Istok" pilot line for assembling, configuring, testing and mass production of microwave sub-modules AFAR has a capacity of 100,000 units per year, which is provided by the development in 2010 mass production of low-temperature multi-layer ceramic (LTSS). The original ceramic tape that is made at the plant. Commissioned a special section for machining of body parts for microwave submodules AFAR with capacity up to 200,000 sets of parts per year.

The MKI's crash prototype is a lot cheaper than a burn out stealth prototype one.

The funding for the MKI program was far lower in comparison. You are talking as though one crash means the end of a program.

 

[Equation]

The Russians can run the PAKFA program by themselves. They don't need India for it. Most of the work is being done by the Russians, as you already know.

I was talking about funding. Russia apparently can not fund the entire program 100% all by themselves. That's why they needed India to help fund it.

 

[Equation]

The F-35 is indeed more vast than the FGFA, but it is nowhere as ambitious. The only aspect similar between the FGFA and F-35 is the avionics. And even that is older avionics compared to next gen avionics planned for the FGFA. You can say the PAKFA Stage 1 is similar to F-35 in terms of avionics, but even that's only in some aspects. Even the Su-30MKI may come with more advanced avionics. Apart from that the FGFA carries more weapons, has more range, is more maneuverable, is supercruise capable, has more altitude options and is a much larger aircraft with more onboard electrical power.

The FGFA is expected to have an ADVENT class engine, smart skins, complete real time networking with satellites and other air assets and individually meant to act as AEW&Cs. All these are features of the American 6th gen program. The ADVENT class engine is expected to be fully functional by 2019 and is the principle difference between the Stage 1 and Stage 2 PAKFA programs.

This will probably give you an idea for what's planned.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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DARPA is working on the smart skins concept with nanophotonics for the 6th gen program.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So the difference is while KRET will be introducing this on the PAKFA in the next few years, DARPA will only do so after 2030 on their 6th gen program.

Future development could see the FGFA with a wideband radar system by 2022-23, instead of the X band radar.

The PAKFA is already flying with DIRCM. The F-35 is expected to get it only by 2025 with the Block 5.
The KS-O:

And one more thing. While the F-35 has standardized on GaAs for all of its emitters, the PAKFA will be standardizing on GaN, something that's planned as 6th gen tech for the US.

Something of note for what's planned in missile seekers.

The K-77M's radar seeker is said to manage a radar lock at 40 miles.

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You will have to use a translator.

In other words we'll believe in when we see it. Can the FGFA launched from a carrier like the F-35C or VTOL like the F-35B? Nope I don't think so. There are proof, pics, and videos on this you know that right?


The funding for the MKI program was far lower in comparison. You are talking as though one crash means the end of a program.[/QUOTE]

And you are talking as though everything is okay therefore a crash or a burned engine will NOT hinder the progress of the program, especially a stealth plane program.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Still doing this? LOLOL You guys are precious! I backed outta this long ago.

"Oh, PAK FA had 5 prototypes, 1 cracked and 1 caught on fire? That's cool, 3 left! They built 5 cus they were expecting to wreck 4. Doesn't set back the program at all. Matter of fact, that's 2 to spare! Win for India!"

"Oh, they won't let let Indians check out the flaming wreck of the project that we're heavily invested in? That's cool, no disrespect. We didn't lose face; we're being treated very well. The Russians are bending over backwards to please us. Win for India!"

"News that India's pissed off at Russia's progress on PAK FA? Made up, garbage, from 1 source, imagination! News that PAK FA did more than fart in the hanger today? Proof of progress! Win for India!"

"Rafale's a 5th generation fighter and PAK FA's avionics are way more advanced than F-35. What do the Americans know about making avionics anyway? Win for India!"

"Oh, Pakistan might get J-10B? That's less money for J-31! Win for India! Oh, they're getting J-31? Then that's less money for J-41! Win for India!"

LOLOL I am cracking up here! I hope he's a lawyer; the judge might be humored into giving him the decision.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Still doing this? LOLOL You guys are precious! I back outta this long ago.

"Oh, PAK FA had 5 prototypes, 1 cracked and 1 caught on fire? That's cool, 3 left! They built 5 cus they were expecting to wreck 4. Doesn't set back the program at all. Matter of fact, that's 2 to spare! Win for India!"

"Oh, they won't let let Indians check out the flaming wreck of the project that we're heavily invested in? That's cool, no disrespect. We didn't lose face; we're being treated very well. The Russians are bending over backwards to please us. Win for India!"

"News that India's pissed off at Russia's progress on PAK FA? Made up, garbage, from 1 source, imagination! News that PAK FA did more than fart in the hanger today? Proof of progress! Win for India!"

"Rafale's a 5th generation fighter and PAK FA's avionics are way more advanced than F-35. What do the Americans know about making avionics anyway? Win for India!"

"Oh, Pakistan might get J-10B? That's less money for J-31! Win for India! Oh, they're getting J-31? Then that's less money for J-41! Win for India!"

LOLOL I am cracking up here! I hope he's a lawyer; the judge might be humored into giving him the decision.

 

[b787]

Still doing this? LOLOL You guys are precious! I back outta this long ago.

"Oh, PAK FA had 5 prototypes, 1 cracked and 1 caught on fire? That's cool, 3 left! They built 5 cus they were expecting to wreck 4. Doesn't set back the program at all. Matter of fact, that's 2 to spare! Win for India!"



LOLOL I am cracking up here! I hope he's a lawyer; the judge might be humored into giving him the decision.

051 picture february 2014

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052 picture february 2015

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Russia has at least 4 flying prototypes

Video
Video 051 from August 28, 2014 at Ramenskoye

 

[Air Force Brat]

051 has structural issues that ended its flying status, and that prompted the redesign of PAK-FA, that is fairly certain.