Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[A Bar Brother]

The fire occurred during the landing roll-out on the flight test ace, yes they want to see it, and yes they want full disclosure, isn't that what a joint venture entails. The Russians did not want them to know the aircraft was a total loss.

I'm pretty sure the IAF knows more than you or me whether the aircraft was a total loss or not. Regardless, the Su-30 crash in 1999 was also a total loss, it did not affect the program. JV is a JV after deals are signed. The expectation that the Russians should allow the Indians to survey the aircraft is no different than the US allowing the survey of the F-35 just because the IN evinced interest in the F-35, which they have.

Heck, IAF did not insist on surveying the Rafale crash in 2012 even though negotiations with Dassault was going on at the time. You have an extremely weird notion of what needs to be done during negotiations. I'm pretty sure all the F-35 partners asked for a report on the F-35, not sit around surveying the aftermath.

More importantly, the IAF sent an evaluation team to evaluate the PAKFA, not a crash inquiry team which requires an entirely different set of expertise. An evaluation team has no business being around an accident site in any country.

They are likely afraid the Indians will walk???

Sorry, but that's only your imagination.

 

[cyan1320]

in the news
India is mad at Russia for withholding info on fifth-generation stealth fighter jets

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[Equation]

in the news
India is mad at Russia for withholding info on fifth-generation stealth fighter jets

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Darn it...you've beat me to it (posting of the article)...lol!

 

[A Bar Brother]

It is the same thing that's repeated over and over again.

 

[Equation]

It is the same thing that's repeated over and over again.

That the Indian officials aren't happy?

 

[Deino]

To admit it's nearly funny since most of the reports posted here over the last few pages don't contain any really hard News. In most cases they repeat what has been posted, written, analyzed or stated some longer time ago ...

Also interesting is that These News can be divided in two fractions: the one side reporting over and over again how successful that program is, no delays, several new prototypes under way, already first Serials delivered in late January, first deliveries to RuAF in 2016, 55 Serials until 2020 ... new radar, new EW, new engines, all running fine.

And the other side repeatedly mentions delays, problems both financially and technically related, the Indian side is unhappy.... and so on.

And what's the truth now ??

Deino

 

[Air Force Brat]

I'm pretty sure the IAF knows more than you or me whether the aircraft was a total loss or not. Regardless, the Su-30 crash in 1999 was also a total loss, it did not affect the program. JV is a JV after deals are signed. The expectation that the Russians should allow the Indians to survey the aircraft is no different than the US allowing the survey of the F-35 just because the IN evinced interest in the F-35, which they have.

Heck, IAF did not insist on surveying the Rafale crash in 2012 even though negotiations with Dassault was going on at the time. You have an extremely weird notion of what needs to be done during negotiations. I'm pretty sure all the F-35 partners asked for a report on the F-35, not sit around surveying the aftermath.

More importantly, the IAF sent an evaluation team to evaluate the PAKFA, not a crash inquiry team which requires an entirely different set of expertise. An evaluation team has no business being around an accident site in any country.



Sorry, but that's only your imagination.[/

That the Indian officials aren't happy?

Heh! heh! heh! They are NOT HAPPY! but bar doesn't have a clue why??? they have only invested 300 million in this supposed joint venture??? and after all the Indian team observing 055's flight and subsequent fire were only IDF officials, what could they possibly know about an airplane catching fire and burning in front of their eyes? Dang, that thing is a total dude???? wow man??? how could you say that, the bar brother ain't gonna like that??? well lets just tell him we don't know????? yeah, he'll believe anything we tell him, cause we are "Russian Experts",,,, yeah that's right, no problem, we'll have it fixed for ya right away???? you can pick it up Friday????

 

[A Bar Brother]

That the Indian officials aren't happy?

The "Indian officials are not happy" bit was reported once and this has been repeated time and time again in different news outlets based on the same one article that was published a long time ago.

The first and only set of FGFA criticism related to technicalities with made up information was this one:

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This is what the Russian ambassador to India had to say related to the above article.

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“We pay no attention to negative publications that appear from time to time and claim that Russia does not fulfill its obligations under the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme. Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation under this programme develops as scheduled, and we have not received any official complaints from the Indian side", he said.

This is what another important official had to say.

Commenting on one such article in the Indian newspaper Business Standard, Dzirkaln said it was not true. “There is some speculation regarding the development of the Russian-Indian fifth generation fighter aircraft programme, but it’s not surprising because the Indian Air Force, as the customer, would like to get the ‘hardware’, while budget funding has been disbursed for research and development,” he said.

“We have no official complaints from India with regard to the fifth generation fighter aircraft. All negotiations take place under the agreements reached earlier,” Dzirkaln said.

Unfortunately I do not have Pogosyan's interview where he was asked a question relating to the Business Standard article. But I remember him dismissing it.

None of the criticisms make sense anyway. I doubt IAF officials were sitting around discussing how a basic prototype of an earlier design does not conform to a jet that is yet to be designed. However the same thing has been repeated again and again like some kind of mantra in different online news outlets.

The second was right after the crash where they said the Indian officials were not happy. Let's be straight. Nobody in their right mind will be happy when the jet they want to buy catches fire. You have to be completely retarded to be happy at that point. I'm pretty sure all the F-35 partners were equally disappointed when the F-35 caught fire too. But what is so special about a Russian bird crashing versus an American bird?

Let's be straight about one more thing. Did the F-35's fire cause any problems for the future of the aircraft? None. So why would the FGFA be affected by one accident? This is what I've been saying. It doesn't matter how "angry" the Indian team were. It was an accident and contract negotiations will continue as we know is happening as we speak. The MKI's crash did not stop the program either. And as far as the MKI goes, it has the exact same safety record as the F-22.

 

[A Bar Brother]

To admit it's nearly funny since most of the reports posted here over the last few pages don't contain any really hard News. In most cases they repeat what has been posted, written, analyzed or stated some longer time ago ...

Also interesting is that These News can be divided in two fractions: the one side reporting over and over again how successful that program is, no delays, several new prototypes under way, already first Serials delivered in late January, first deliveries to RuAF in 2016, 55 Serials until 2020 ... new radar, new EW, new engines, all running fine.

And the other side repeatedly mentions delays, problems both financially and technically related, the Indian side is unhappy.... and so on.

And what's the truth now ??

Deino

It depends. Many aspects of the PAKFA program are available in the Russian media. But those are mostly to do with flying prototypes, time of state tests and expected induction. We only know about the number to be inducted in Russia by 2020 due to budget announcements which are not classified. Some modifications of older weapons were revealed, like the Kh-35 and K-77M. No information about the new weapons being developed.

As far as the FGFA is concerned, there have only been a handful of real articles. One that announced the beginning of the PDC phase. One that announced the end of front-end and finally the latest being in Jan this year where one of the officials said the PDC has been completed. Then there were two other articles, one which talked about the 43 modifications and 360 degree radar and another which said the two-seat may be canceled because it will be more expensive and will compromise the stealth by as much as 15%. Though we don't know how far that last article was true because now we have officials saying the two-seat will be designed.

As far as the numbers are concerned, the air chief made a press announcement only once (216 with 166 one-seat and 48 two-seat) and ever since then numbers have been changing every few months.

The last genuine article with some technical details of the FGFA was back in 2012. Since then we have been in an information blackhole. The media took advantage of the lack of information to spin stories and sensationalize any issue related to the FGFA. Note that all the FGFA criticism started well after 2012. This is around the time even the Super MKI news dried up.

This was no different in the late '90s when the media criticized the Su-30MKI as well. The air chief actually had to make a public announcement saying IAF will be buying the MKIs regardless of the criticism. At least the FGFA has been spared from the kind of mud-slinging the Rafale has been facing in the Indian media. The armed forces and related companies have long since stopped responding to senseless media criticism.

 

[Equation]

Let's be straight about one more thing. Did the F-35's fire cause any problems for the future of the aircraft? None. So why would the FGFA be affected by one accident? This is what I've been saying. It doesn't matter how "angry" the Indian team were. It was an accident and contract negotiations will continue as we know is happening as we speak. The MKI's crash did not stop the program either. And as far as the MKI goes, it has the exact same safety record as the F-22.

The F-35 program is far more vast and ambitious program than the FGFA and the US has tons of money to develop it ALL BY THEMSELVES (just like China with their J-20 and possible FC/J -31). The FGFA program is affected because the program is funded by two countries and coordinating it and sharing tech is challenging in itself for such a highly expensive project. The MKI's crash prototype is a lot cheaper than a burn out stealth prototype one.