Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[tphuang]

You know what they say, Bar, humor's the best help there is, so I read your posts once in a while! Oh, MiG-21 just got upgraded to 8th generation and its avionics are way more advanced than F-22's LOL

There is no need to go there. And let's cut this out. Clearly, you two are not going to agree with each other.

 

[Brumby]

We can't rely on what can be seen for the sake of argument when the secrecy in one program is far more than on the other. The F-35 is merely an export bird and forms the low end of the USAF. It's based on export grade electronics and stealth technologies whereas the PAKFA is high end and carries technologies meant for the US 6th gen project. As already revealed by the RNAF, the F-35 and Rafale carry very similar electronics.

This paragraph of yours which comprises of just four sentences but sums up in my view why any conversation with you is rather painful because of your circular reason; creation of your own facts; and then applying your own meaning as truth.

For example, the PAKFA is a strategic and secret project but with all your finesse can unequivocally conclude why it is superior to the F-35. Presumably you do know that given all the F-35 transparency there are features in the F-35 that remains classified. It is either a secret or it is not just like the meaning of half pregnant. How do you benchmark something that is a secret against classified information and make a conclusion about their comparative attributes. No one actually knows what is in the US 6G but nevertheless you know that the PAKFA has it even though it is a secret project. This is an example of benchmarking a secret against an undefined and unknown capability. It doesn't matter in your reasoning because a secret is only a secret until you decide it is a secret. A meaning has only meaning when you decide what it means.

Do you realise that people judge credibility through integrity?

 

[b787]

Do you realise that people judge credibility through integrity?

No it is not that, in forums people lump together upon same ideas and biases, if you go to Indian forums you will find french and Indian posters saying Rafale has even better features than F-35.

In reality, things are much more complex, just see this i am old enough to have followed Su-27 career, in the 1980s, it was always underestimated, by 1999, it became a really impressive aircraft in the eyes of the public opinion, now in 2015 is a classic Soviet jet fighter in the same league as MiG-21.

If you know aircraft history for at least 35 years, you will know both east and west are engaged in a propaganda campaign.

A war machine is judged upon many factors, not a single parameter.

For example is a fact MiG-23 was armed with BVR missiles in 1980 while F-16 only carried AIM-9s, see history and you find the Russians always claimed the F-16 in 1980 was no match to MiG-23 in BVR, although in close combat it was much superior.

Some historians in Russia will even claim MiG-23MLD flown properly was even a match for F-15 in BVR combat.

Same is now to judge both programs F-35 and PAKFA is very hard because one, they are new, they have no combat experience, thus how effective they are is hard to judge.

In my personal opinion, MiG-23 was no worse than F-4E because both aircraft were downed in large numbers and both aircraft were quiet similar in aerodynamics, technology and producitability.

Same is PAKFA, you always will find western historians saying is not that good, but same F-35, it is belittled in Russia, how good are they, only history will tell.

When you find historians from both sides saying the same then you can get a glimpse of Reality, in Russia the F-15 is respected, if it is compared to MiG-23 or even MiG-21, they admit that F-15 was effective downing them, but when it comes to MiG-29 or MiG-25 they say F-15 was not that good and you can read Russian historians saying MiG-25 downed F-15s and MiG-29s downed Tornadoes and many western fighters in 1991, and compared to Su-27 they say it is inferior, once a US pilot told me Su-27 is a pretty good machine compared to F-15 so both sides agree in some points.

time will tell, but it passes so slow, now aircraft have very long operational careers and development periods just look at MiG-21, it still flies and in new versions it is true is kind of a little challenge to even F-15s.

 

[A Bar Brother]

This paragraph of yours which comprises of just four sentences but sums up in my view why any conversation with you is rather painful because of your circular reason; creation of your own facts; and then applying your own meaning as truth.

Maybe you should figure out why you are a pain to deal with.

For example, the PAKFA is a strategic and secret project but with all your finesse can unequivocally conclude why it is superior to the F-35. Presumably you do know that given all the F-35 transparency there are features in the F-35 that remains classified. It is either a secret or it is not just like the meaning of half pregnant. How do you benchmark something that is a secret against classified information and make a conclusion about their comparative attributes. No one actually knows what is in the US 6G but nevertheless you know that the PAKFA has it even though it is a secret project. This is an example of benchmarking a secret against an undefined and unknown capability. It doesn't matter in your reasoning because a secret is only a secret until you decide it is a secret. A meaning has only meaning when you decide what it means.

All that I have said about PAKFA/FGFA is stuff that's being developed today and is well known. For example, I have provided a source saying the PAKFA will use GaN. The fact that the Izd 30 is a VCE similar to the ADVENT is well documented through Russian sources. I have provided a real picture of a GaN based missile seeker as well.

As for the US 6G, I have not extrapolated anything by myself. I have mentioned two technologies that were mentioned by American officials in the 6G thread and will be part of 6G technologies in the long run. One is the ADVENT class engines. The second is smart skins, I provided a KRET and DARPA source talking about smart skins. Apart from that I haven't assumed anything specific about the American 6G.

I have also provided the reasons on why some aspects are not a secret. Knowing these things means nothing if you want to judge the capabilities of the aircraft. These are just base technologies, nothing particularly secretive about them. For eg: We know Intel makes Silicon based processors, similar to how the Russians plan to use GaN for T/R modules. But the difference is as vast as an old 8080 processor designed in the '80s to the latest i7 processors. So we don't know the actual capabilities of the aircraft.

However depending on the base technologies we can say a lot of things about the aircraft. For eg: It is obvious that using VCE is going to increase the performance of the aircraft by a huge margin. The engine will act as a high bypass engine at low altitudes and low bypass engine at high altitudes. Any aerodynamics specialist can tell you what that would mean for a fighter aircraft.

Then we know that GaN will be used. Any electronics engineer can tell you the massive advantages in power and cooling requirements this new material brings.

Smart skins with broadband amplifiers. Any radar developer can tell you the advantages of this. The French say they can remove the radar from the Rafale's nose and simply apply the radar throughout the skin of the airframe, thereby providing a full 360 degree capability. They can also tell you this will enable the use of multiple bands of RF instead of just being limited to X band. Basically a broadband radar.

These are the things we know about the PAKFA/FGFA program. A lot of open source information already places the PAKFA Stage 1 above the F-35. For example, DIRCM is operational on the PAKFA. There are multiple radars on the aircraft. It has IRST all around the aircraft. The aircraft is equipped with a fully capable broadband EW suite (already posted the link), unlike the receive-only suite on the F-35. And we are not even talking about the performance parameters. I'm sure you are also aware of these differences already. Basically, the Russians have provided a lot of information without actually giving away any of the aircraft's capabilities. We merely have some information on the Stage 1 because it is not the definitive version for either the VVS or the IAF, it merely showcases the capabilities of the PAKFA program to outsiders.

The American version of 5th gen on the F-35 isn't the same as what's defined as 5th gen by Russia/India. However you will eventually see a lot of similarities between new requirements for 6th gen in the US and what's going on the PAKFA Stage-2 and the FGFA.

You can google by yourself all the claims I have made. Every bit of it is open source. And I have already provided most of the sources right in this thread. So what was that about me making up facts? It must be the same as I-don't-believe-the-PAKFA-exists facts or Russia-made-up-the-PAKFA-to-act-big facts.

Do you realise that people judge credibility through integrity?

Everything I have said here can be verified through open source information. I have posted a large number of links throughout this very thread.

OTOH, all you have provided is "your" opinions.
- PAKFA is delayed because I said so.
- PAKFA is not what is it cracked up to be.
- F-35 Strong!
- America Strong!
- Ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments etc etc

 

[Jeff Head]

CUT the senseless arguments.

This thread is to discuss relevant, credible news about PAKFA, its actual known capabilities, and the plans Russia and India have for it. While some speculation is unavoidable with a project like this...wild speculations that leds to arguments, irrespective of source...will be nipped in the bud.

This is not a comparison thread between PAKFA and F-35. It is not an argument thread about who knows what is best and who does not. It is not a place to post any so-called "open source" information that can be found to support one's premise. It is not a fan boy thread about PAKFA or anything else.

Any more of these types things which lead to senseless arguments that are posted after this moderation post and I will go back and delete every single one of them...and close the thread for a while.

Tphuang tried to get you folks to back off a few posts ago...

Well...now Buford has come to town

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION

 

[Equation]

DELETED

 

[aksha]

PAK FA Received Unique System of Main Engines Start

The engine of Russian multi-target fifth-generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) can run without oxygen in contrast to previous planes that used oxygen replenishment, the General Director of holding “Aircraft Equipment” (part of the state corporation “Rostec”) Maxim Kuzyuk noted.

“When creating the PAK FA we were tasked to provide oxygen-free starting. The plasma ignition system is installed in the main combustion chamber and afterburner. The innovation is integrated in the nozzle with a plasma system: it organizes plasma arc simultaneously with the filing of kerosene,” RIA Novosti quoted Maxim Kuzyuk.

The system of main engines start and auxiliary power unit (APU) of PAK FA is called “unique” and “having no analogues in the world” by the spokesman.

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[aksha]

Russia, India to Start Manufacture of First Test Models of T-50 Fighter Jet

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Russia and India are moving into the phase of constructing the first test models of the Russian-Indian fifth-generation T-50 fighter jet with stealth capabilities, the deputy head of Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport said Tuesday.
“The agreements on the contract are currently at their final stages, which include the development of construction documentation, building the test models, trials, and certification,” Sergei Goreslavsky told RIA Novosti in an interview ahead of the Aero India-2015 exposition in Bangalore, India, that will open on February 18.

The first stage of the Russian-Indian project has already been finalized. The first test aircraft is scheduled to be created after 2018.

The Sukhoi T-50, or PAK FA, is the Russian Air Force’s first stealth fighter, designed to succeed the Sukhoi Su-27, as well as the Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jets. The aircraft conducted its first test flight in 2010.

The FGFA, developed jointly by Russia’s Sukhoi and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is a derivative from the T-50. Unlike the Russian version, the Indian version of the aircraft will be a two-seater.


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[aksha]

for all the nonsense that has been circulating about about india being displeased, here comes an official statement

Ambassador: India satisfied with the level of access to the military technology of the Russian Federation

РИА Новости

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India and Russia have a unique experience of joint research, development and production of military equipment, said Indian ambassador Pound Srinivasan Raghavan.He noted that the development of a new joint Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter FGFA observed the same level of cooperation.

New Delhi said "excellent" results of cooperation with Russia in the military-technical sphere and satisfied with the level of access to technology that can not organize the competition, said Indian ambassador Pound Srinivasan Raghavan.

"India and Russia have a unique experience of joint research, development and production of military equipment. The results of our cooperation are great, and we are fully satisfied with the access to technologies that got our business. And the development of a new fighter (joint Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter FGFA) we observe the same level of cooperation, "- said the ambassador in an interview with RIA Novosti.

Speaking on conflicting assessments of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation, he noted that "the press is always rife with misinformation, including the one that comes competitors." "And we need to understand that many of these press reports are written by people who are not interested in this project, for whatever their reasons. So they do not necessarily tell the truth. Or tell, but based on their own understanding, not based on point of view of the government or establishment, "- he said.
In September 2014 IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, citing sources reported that the Indian Air Force Command displeased a number of characteristics FGFA, in particular, have a claim to the engine, radar, stealth capabilities, armament. In addition, the Indians supposedly unhappy that they were not divided in full Technologies of the Russian T-50.

 

[A Bar Brother]

So FGFA is happening for sure. No more yellow journalism based ammunition for the critics now. That was obvious given the air chief said the PDP was signed after the Russians had transferred all the required documents for the phase.

It looks like Rafale is a done deal too. Dassault's CEO said something similar. Contract negotiations are finished. What's pending is the liabilities. MoS said India wants the best quality possible from the Indian made Rafales. A French delegation will arrive in Bangalore, I believe tomorrow.

So both deals could be wrapped up in the next two months. The FGFA will be done earlier by the looks of it, maybe in the next few days.