Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[b787]

I don't think we are expecting Sukhoi and Russian defense sources to be anything but optimistic or positive in their assessment and projection of the program. Also, I think Deino made it clear that he was saying that all reports on repairing T-50-5 was from right after the accident. So you posting articles for your point from that period doesn't really detract his point. Now that doesn't mean anything that's posted by other people are trustworthy either.

I think we just have to be very careful here about sources we use and what that tells us. Not accepting necessarily everything they tell us, but figuring out a picture that everything paints. I put this out there because here at a Chinese forum, we have to do a lot due to the amount of garbage that gets posted. And I will tell members to take the sources and figure out what they are trying to convey.

I want to ask you do you work for Sukhoi? are you better than Sukhoi to know the Status of T-50? are you and aeronautical engineer with access to the T-50 program?

For me your opinion is not important, because you are not Sukhoi, i do not think even you have been in Russia and even visit a single factory there, i have a friend Vicente Talon Ortiz who at least has been to a Mil Factory in Russia, covered more than 10 war conflicts since the 1950s, but he does not know Sukhoi, he can not say anything because he has no access to Sukhoi

Tell me when did you visit KAAPO installations last time? you just want to force me to say your conspiracy theory is right because you are a moderator in this forum.


If in 3 or 4 years Russia does not make what they say about T-50 then you will be right but now so far you have no authority to say Sukhoi lies beyond your opinion, your opinion or whatever you think are not what people will read for information about PAKFA i do not think you have ever been as an aeronautical engineer in Russia not even as a Chinese expert that has been to Russia.

Thus i do not consider an authority, prove me you know more than Sukhoi about T-50, then we speak so far your opinion for me is just from a moderator in Forum that can just silence me if you want by deleting posts or banning me so far beyond that your opinion has no relevance beyond sinodefence or this forum.

 

[Deino]

You simply don't get it !??

Just remember how much and often LM told us only the best of the F-35 ??? ... nearly each and every time.
It's their job to be optimistic, over-optimistic since they want to sell that damn thing.

I really can't understand why You hold all what Sukhoi says as a given fact, the truth and nothing but the truth ?? ... for You Sukhoi seems to be nearly equal to god and even if they post dated information, information that have been corrected or even falsified in the meantime, You take them for granted and we are wrong !

As such I'm really in the mood to question Your "overoptimistic" altitude here, Your reliability as a poster at SDF and simply I question the reason of your presence here: Are You a Sukhoi-selesman, an over-optimistic T50-fan, who's on a crusade to save the T50's reputation or are You simply single-minded fan boy ?

I'm sure You now immediately question my role as a moderator and call me to calm down ... but NO I can't especially since my aim is to keep the high quality of SDF's post !!! No-one can deliver You the information You ask since there are no official information like that but that does not mean in return that everything Sukhoi tells is a fact.

Therefore I admire Your persistence and enthusiasm .. but I really can't understand Your single-sided point of view, blinded by optimism ... that in the end simply prevents You from seeing a wider view on things than You get from "pure 100% officially confirmed".

By the way I have a friend working in Russia, he even has access to the facilities you mentioned and even better contacts to people with access to exactly the information You request from us ... and even if he does not explains or unveils me his sources I trust him since he is always correct and as such a highly reliable source; I simply trust him ... reagrdless what Sukhoi or any other Russian military or politician says.

By the way he says that damn thing is dead ! period.

Deino

 

[Air Force Brat]

I want to ask you do you work for Sukhoi? are you better than Sukhoi to know the Status of T-50? are you and aeronautical engineer with access to the T-50 program?

For me your opinion is not important, because you are not Sukhoi, i do not think even you have been in Russia and even visit a single factory there, i have a friend Vicente Talon Ortiz who at least has been to a Mil Factory in Russia, covered more than 10 war conflicts since the 1950s, but he does not know Sukhoi, he can not say anything because he has no access to Sukhoi

Tell me when did you visit KAAPO installations last time? you just want to force me to say your conspiracy theory is right because you are a moderator in this forum.


If in 3 or 4 years Russia does not make what they say about T-50 then you will be right but now so far you have no authority to say Sukhoi lies beyond your opinion, your opinion or whatever you think are not what people will read for information about PAKFA i do not think you have ever been as an aeronautical engineer in Russia not even as a Chinese expert that has been to Russia.

Thus i do not consider an authority, prove me you know more than Sukhoi about T-50, then we speak so far your opinion for me is just from a moderator in Forum that can just silence me if you want by deleting posts or banning me so far beyond that your opinion has no relevance beyond sinodefence or this forum.

787, Deino is a very polite and respectful teacher and an author who has been published in several high zoot aviation magazines, Air Combat Monthly, for example. Their is no need to be combative or rude to our moderators, and I would suggest that you owe our brother an apology? As I noted before, you seem to be taking this as a personal attack or insult against you, it is most certainly not. As we have each noted, we disagree with your hypothesis, nothing more, nothing less. Deino is very highly thought of in professional aviation circles, and is one of a handful of real authors with access to data and contacts that would make the rest of somewhat green with envy... you yourself stated that you were following bds example on Sino Defense, good for you, but this is certainly not how he would handle a simple disagreement?

I would respectfully ask you to reread your last post, you have become very combative over a difference of opinion, it is not necessary or brotherly to disrespect those who have the responsibility to keep this forum civil and professional.

 

[b787]

You simply don't get it !??

Just remember how much and often LM told us only the best of the F-35 ??? ... nearly each and every time.
It's their job to be optimistic, over-optimistic since they want to sell that damn thing.

I really can't understand why You hold all what Sukhoi says as a given fact, the truth and nothing but the truth ?? ... for You Sukhoi seems to be nearly equal to god and even if they post dated information, information that have been corrected or even falsified in the meantime, You take them for granted and we are wrong !

As such I'm really in the mood to question Your "overoptimistic" altitude here, Your reliability as a poster at SDF and simply I question the reason of your presence here: Are You a Sukhoi-selesman, an over-optimistic T50-fan, who's on a crusade to save the T50's reputation or are You simply single-minded fan boy ?

I'm sure You now immediately question my role as a moderator and call me to calm down ... but NO I can't especially since my aim is to keep the high quality of SDF's post !!! No-one can deliver You the information You ask since there are no official information like that but that does not mean in return that everything Sukhoi tells is a fact.

Therefore I admire Your persistence and enthusiasm .. but I really can't understand Your single-sided, blinded by optimism stand.

By the way I have a friend working in Russia, he even has access to the facilities you mentioned and even better contacts to people with access to exactly the information You request from us ... and even if he does not explains or unveils me his sources I trust him since he is always correct and as such a highly reliable source; I simply trust him ... reagrdless what Sukhoi or any other Russian military or politician says.

By the way he says that damn thing is dead ! period.

Deino

Your secret friend will not say anything if he really works for Sukhoi on theT-50 or he will end up in Jail, my friend is a Spanish Journalist who happens to be a war Journalist thus he has been allowed as a Journalist to see what he is allowed to see.

I do not believe you your story of your friend because Russia keeps control of its military industry well and only TV channels like TVzvezda are allowed to enter and film T-50 under a well choreograph script.

However i am sure you have no direct access but still you critize Sukhoi like if you were a TV reporter of TVzvezda, you have no access you are just a moderator of this forum your personal opinions are okay but you have no authority listen no authority and to put you this get it i will not base my opinion upon yours but upon what official sources say you are not what people will look for information about PAKFA


If i want information about PAKFA i will read Sukhoi, UAC or ROSTEC if i want your opinion i can listen your opinion and discuss it with you, but definitively you are not what i will google for info on T-50 i will google TVZvezda or Sukhoi you like it or not

 

[b787]

787, Deino is a very polite and respectful teacher and an author who has been published in several high zoot aviation magazines, Air Combat Monthly, for example. Their is no need to be combative or rude to our moderators, and I would suggest that you owe our brother an apology? As I noted before, you seem to be taking this as a personal attack or insult against you, it is most certainly not. As we have each noted, we disagree with your hypothesis, nothing more, nothing less. Deino is very highly thought of in professional aviation circles, and is one of a handful of real authors with access to data and contacts that would make the rest of somewhat green with envy... you yourself stated that you were following bds example on Sino Defense, good for you, but this is certainly not how he would handle a simple disagreement?

I would respectfully ask you to reread your last post, you have become very combative over a difference of opinion, it is not necessary or brotherly to disrespect those who have the responsibility to keep this forum civil and professional.

watch it

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

With all due respect to him, he is not working for TVzvezda, there you can watch the KNAAPO facilities their reporters touch see the T-50 live, he says he has a friend i say i can watch TV zvezda and see the facility, he can be an expert in some topics but i doubt both moderators are more experts in T-50 than Sukhoi and TV ZVEZDA, they have direct acces, they do not

 

[Deino]

Again You simply don't get it ....

I never said I've worked for Sukhoi and my friend also not, but he is much closer to people who know what's going on and they tell here a bit and there - even without being in danger of being shot - and if You listen closely to the right peoples You get quite a clear a picture that is far more reliable than what's written, published or reported by the official TVzvezda, RIAN or UAC.

Even more TVzvezda or RIAN are pure official propaganda maybe close to the reliability of certain US media !

Even more if we would trust everything these "sources" You praise so high, if everything would be true they tell ... the Russian aviation scene, the Russian economy would be a much different one ... ego they do not tell the truth either in the same way the US government or any other aviation company does not tell everything nor the truth.

By this strange logic - and I know a few in forums still keep or kept it for long - the CAC J-10 never existed until the first official unveiling ... only since there was no official statement from CAC, the PLA nor the PLAAF or especially the CMC, regardless the hundreds of images we had already.

You really simply seem to follow the way: It can't be what is not allowed to be ! ... strangely enough "what is allowed" to be reported is strictly under control by Sukhoi. But for You it's the truth, the only truth.

Therefore take this as an advice: everyone has the right to have its own opinion but no-one here has the right to tell this is the one and only truth. We are all here to learn and that requires to read, the consider, to reconsider again especially when new evidence arises, to consider that not all what is written is a fact - especially not from official sources - and even more to trust a few more reliable people, who became respected "sources" since they have been proven right after a long time here (and to assure You I don't see myself as such a person !) ... we all have to learn and given Your latest posts and Your overall altitude I really question if the SDF is the right place for You. This is not since You post things that might not fit my opinion, but simply since you repeatedly ignore other opinions, simply since You request things no-one can give You while You are only repeating "official" stuff that has been proven wrong too often, ... You are simply not willing to learn.

Deino

 

[b787]

Again You simply don't get it ....

I never said I've worked for Sukhoi and my friend also not, but he is much closer to people who know what's going on and they tell here a bit and there - even without being in danger of being shot - and if You listen closely to the right peoples You get quite a clear a picture that is far more reliable than what's written, published or reported by the official TVzvezda, RIAN or UAC.

Even more TVzvezda or RIAN are pure official propaganda maybe close to the reliability of certain US media !

Even more if we would trust everything these "sources" You praise so high, if everything would be true they tell ... the Russian aviation scene, the Russian economy would be a much different one ... ego they do not tell the truth either in the same way the US government or any other aviation company does not tell everything nor the truth.

By this strange logic - and I know a few in forums still keep or kept it for long - the CAC J-10 never existed until the first official unveiling ... only since there was no official statement from CAC, the PLA nor the PLAAF or especially the CMC, regardless the hundreds of images we had already.

You really simply seem to follow the way: It can't be what is not allowed to be ! ... strangely enough "what is allowed" to be reported is strictly under control by Sukhoi. But for You it's the truth, the only truth.

Therefore take this as an advice: everyone has the right to have its own opinion but no-one here has the right to tell this is the one and only truth. We are all here to learn and that requires to read, the consider, to reconsider again especially when new evidence arises, to consider that not all what is written is a fact - especially not from official sources - and even more to trust a few more reliable people, who became respected "sources" since they have been proven right after a long time here (and to assure You I don't see myself as such a person !) ... we all have to learn and given Your latest posts and Your overall altitude I really question if the SDF is the right place for You. This is not since You post things that might not fit my opinion, but simply since you repeatedly ignore other opinions, simply since You request things no-one can give You while You are only repeating "official" stuff that has been proven wrong too often, ... You are simply not willing to learn.

Deino

Learn, i do not understand what do you mean by learn, you are using it as i have to agree with you, i do not, i have to listen, true, accept you have your own opinion, and consider what are you saying, learning by definition does not imply agree with you or any other poster.

If by 2017 Russia has not built 12 aircraft a year as they have reported from 2016 onwards or built 2 flying prototypes in 2015 then i will agree with your opinion so far you only have a hunch, if by 2018 they have not tested the type 30 engine or deployed a few IOC aircraft then you are right, but unless you have that evidence, you can not say i am unwilling to learn, we will need to see if what Sukhoi promises turns true, if it does not then you are right, but if they do you are the one unwilling to learn.

After saying this we should wait and see, only that time will tell who is right, who is wrong and who was unwilling to learn

 

[Zool]

Time will ultimately tell the story of 55, but considered opinion and analysis is what a forum like SinoDefence is all about. Why participate in a discussion (or the board in general) if you see no value in what other posters have to share?

I could understand getting emotional about the topic if someone was putting out random negative comments on the aircraft's future, such as it being beyond Russia's capability to put the 55 airframe back in the air or that the program will suffer a catastrophic setback as a result of the fire. But that's not what has been put forward. It's been logical discussion about the merits of rebuilding 55 based on cost, technical effort and time. Versus continuing the program with a scratch build replacement (perhaps using some salvage materials) or with the remaining units as is until the next iteration of the design is ready for prototype testing (if the design is to indeed change significantly from current).

TP & Deino are spot on when it comes to sources. It applies to Western Outlets and Manufacturers as much as it does to Russian, Chinese or any other. Look at what is said (in particular look for what is said in quotation marks and not ad-lib by the writer) and when it was said. Look for confirming sources, i.e. more than one. And then apply some logic to it. And keep score with what these sources have said in the past.

Anyway, it seems this has become a defensive battle of opinions rather than a conversation about what may happen next with the aircraft and why.

 

[Deino]

....

After saying this we should wait and see, only that time will tell who is right, who is wrong and who was unwilling to learn

One final statement and after that we should both indeed follow "Zool's" advice ...

I'm eager to learn, I would be happy if the T50 would enter service already next year. I wish them all the best. But the difference between both of us is simply that I have an open-minded view or to say so, an rather un-emotional view. I take all positive and negative facts as a simply result of a more than difficult development process. In contrast it seems at least to me You take everything that can be seen against Your beloved T50 right away as an insult, as a personnel attack and that simply prevents you from seeing what's going on in fact.

Anyway and now back to the news...

Deino

 

[tphuang]

I want to ask you do you work for Sukhoi? are you better than Sukhoi to know the Status of T-50? are you and aeronautical engineer with access to the T-50 program?

For me your opinion is not important, because you are not Sukhoi, i do not think even you have been in Russia and even visit a single factory there, i have a friend Vicente Talon Ortiz who at least has been to a Mil Factory in Russia, covered more than 10 war conflicts since the 1950s, but he does not know Sukhoi, he can not say anything because he has no access to Sukhoi

Tell me when did you visit KAAPO installations last time? you just want to force me to say your conspiracy theory is right because you are a moderator in this forum.


If in 3 or 4 years Russia does not make what they say about T-50 then you will be right but now so far you have no authority to say Sukhoi lies beyond your opinion, your opinion or whatever you think are not what people will read for information about PAKFA i do not think you have ever been as an aeronautical engineer in Russia not even as a Chinese expert that has been to Russia.

Thus i do not consider an authority, prove me you know more than Sukhoi about T-50, then we speak so far your opinion for me is just from a moderator in Forum that can just silence me if you want by deleting posts or banning me so far beyond that your opinion has no relevance beyond sinodefence or this forum.

Deino and I are not the same person and I'm not debating any point with you. I don't have a conspiracy theory. I was simply pointing out that your usage of sources is not wise. Nobody is attempting to silence you. It's important to not only list sources but also understand where the source is coming from, if the source is still valid after a certain point. These are the things important when we are evaluating information that we have. It really has nothing to do with Sukhoi.