Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
Agreed, but again I do not question that a rebuild (I would not call it a simple repair due to the extensive damage) could be done and Your argument is valid; also I do not question that Russia can't do it ... my point is - and here Your argument that it might last longer than I would like to accept - is that it might not be economical usefull. In this case an additional prototype might be cheaper and earlier available.

Again I do not say that it can't be done and maybe regardless of cost they simply want to do it only to test if it is possible ... but let us wait and see.

Deino

Prototypes are very important and are not cheap since they are handmade. They are used throughout their life. The MKI prototypes are still flying and will continue to do so for another 10 years.

Aircraft are divided into many sections, if a rebuild is required, it is cheaper to build specific parts instead of making a brand new prototype. In case the 5th prototype is written off, the Russians will most likely not build a replacement, they will have to make do with the existing prototypes. The Su-30MKI had 5 prototypes, one of which crashed in 1999 and was never replaced.

Anyway, it takes 2-3 years to manufacture a prototype.
 

Brumby

Major
Anyway, it takes 2-3 years to manufacture a prototype.

I question the claim of 2-3 years to build a prototype. That may be the case from initial design to the first one but when you have an existing design that you need a replacement it should be much quicker. The Chinese has demonstrated that with 4 prototypes (J-20) introduced in quick succession in 2014 alone i.e. averaging 3 months per plane. If you are in the plane development business and if it takes 2-3 years to replace, I would question whether you should be in that business.

What is your basis for a 2-3 years build time?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Prototypes are very important and are not cheap since they are handmade. They are used throughout their life. The MKI prototypes are still flying and will continue to do so for another 10 years.

Aircraft are divided into many sections, if a rebuild is required, it is cheaper to build specific parts instead of making a brand new prototype. In case the 5th prototype is written off, the Russians will most likely not build a replacement, they will have to make do with the existing prototypes. The Su-30MKI had 5 prototypes, one of which crashed in 1999 and was never replaced.

Anyway, it takes 2-3 years to manufacture a prototype.
there really isn't any reason for Sukhoi to still need 2 to 3 years to manufacture a T-50 prototype at this point.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
there really isn't any reason for Sukhoi to still need 2 to 3 years to manufacture a T-50 prototype at this point.

Exactly, and with Bort 55 out of commission, you will need to either rebuild it using the bits that were undamaged, or write it off as a total and build another prototype, those tests still will be run, there is simply no other way, and while we may lack specifics, we certainly have a body of evidence as to how these programs have been run in the past. With prototype 01 having structural concerns, and evidence that these concerns are requiring some redesign, which has likely already been accomplished, it does push the project back.

Look at the F-35 program, and losing a test bird, it shut lots of things down, and pushed the project back several months, the same with cracks in bulkheads and wing root ribs, you slow down, take a step back and look at the problem, look at the possible solutions??? and move the project forward, everybody does it, really look at the J-20, we didn't see any prototypes for some time, why?? they were doing just exactly what I said, they were redesigning and rebuilding this airplane, we don't know why they made the changes they did, but they made those changes and pushed the project ahead.

On another note, the J-20 is not built, nor is the J-15/J-16 built on a line as we see here in the West, but as master delft and others continue to point out, they are built in batches??? 2, or 3, or 4 aircraft at a time, and they come off the que the same way. Others have pointed out, the F-22 could be said to be built in the same way, many parts were NOT interchangeable from airframe to airframe, and that was problematic with those early birds, sometime the panels had to be modified to fit on a given airframe.

As a final thought, PAK-FA, J-20, J-31, and F-35 are all "clean sheet" airframes, they are completely new designs, you design, build, and fly, and go back and redesign, rebuild, and refly, until you have it right, then and only then do you move to LRIP, and you may still encounter things that need to be changed, as you begin to operate the aircraft, it begins to accumulate hours, things will crack, break, wear out, chaff, buffet????, who knows, why I get so disgusted when people who haven't ever spun a wrench on anything, flown anything, or broken anything, come out in their lab coats with thick glasses and big watches and start making grand pronouncements about this or that, the truth is in real life, test programs fall behind, costs go up, test points come and go, and production schedules get moved back, and total aircraft sales get cut, not in every case, but frequently enough so that we should plan for and be prepared for these things, and if we get it right the first time, be thankful and move on to the next angle.

These are all very fine promising projects that deserve to move forward, they will each one face many challenges to their success along the way, it is perseverance and hard work that move these birds off the production que, and onto the flight line. I have no doubt that Suhkoi has a winner here, the PAK-FA is in the crucible now, and she will come through her baptism by fire, a better and safer aircraft?
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
I question the claim of 2-3 years to build a prototype. That may be the case from initial design to the first one but when you have an existing design that you need a replacement it should be much quicker. The Chinese has demonstrated that with 4 prototypes (J-20) introduced in quick succession in 2014 alone i.e. averaging 3 months per plane. If you are in the plane development business and if it takes 2-3 years to replace, I would question whether you should be in that business.

What is your basis for a 2-3 years build time?

That's how long it takes to build an aircraft. The MKI takes 34 months. The Rafale takes 30 months. The LCA is expected to take around 30 months too.

PAKFA started production of the first two prototypes in 2007 and completed them sometime in 2010. Should be lesser than the time it takes to manufacture a Su-30.
 

b787

Captain
Corporation "Tactical Missiles" (TEV) completes the state tests Kh-58USHK designed to equip the Russian perspective complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA), according to the Military Industrial Courier.

This was announced at the international air show in China CEO Boris Obnosov TRV. "This is absolutely the latest product that has nothing to do with the old X-58, except for the index: it is twice shorter than the X-58 is equipped with a completely different homing. Just now finishing its state tests, including test launches with experimental aircraft T-50 ", - he said.

According to the head of the corporation, the PAK FA "is the only Russian platform, equipped with anti-radar missiles vnutrifyuzelyazhnyh placement." But it can be installed on external hardpoints, said Obnosov.

Corporation also successfully continues to work on the X-74m2 - another new missile, "designed to equip fighter T-50 in the first stage," he said. "On the PAK FA will be completely new weapons, - said CEO TRV. - We present here only our new missiles, but not all. "

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MOSCOW, July 29. / ITAR-TASS /. United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) expects to conclude with the Russian Defense Ministry first contract for the supply of T-50 (PAK FA) for the Air Force next year. The volume of the agreement will be a few tens of fifth generation fighter aircraft, said in an interview with Itar-Tass head of the department of military programs KLA Vladimir Mikhailov.
Novosibirsk Aircraft Plant named after VP Chkalov


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b787

Captain
The composite material (KM), the composite - patchy artificially created solid material consisting of two or more components with a clear boundary between them.

New composite materials and resins for the fifth generation fighter


 
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