Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

b787

Captain
MOSCOW, July 29.(ARMS-TASS).Experts of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) found cause of the incident, which occurred in early June in Zhukovsky near Moscow, where lit Sukhoi PAK FA (PAK FA).In an interview with Itar-Tass said the head of the directorate of military programs KLA Vladimir Mikhailov.
"The reasons we already know, but the commission has not yet completed its work, and to call them is premature. Now experts are working to identify possible sources of these reasons," - said Mikhailov.
He stressed that the incident will not affect the overall timing tests on the PAK FA program.According to Mikhailov, the amount of damage is not yet specified, and the data and findings of the investigation will be made public later.
"Today, I can only say that the fighter will be fully restored. The volume of testing, which was planned for the aircraft, will be reallocated to other machines, and rebuilt fighter connect to the tests later," - said the head of the directorate of military programs
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
@ b787 !

Please don't get me, but You could post as many "sources" You find stating all the same, as long they are not recent since they are just from a few after than mishap they are irrelevant.

It's once again the same; not the number of sources is important (since often enough they simply copy and paste what the first one - most likely here the original Sukhoi site - said, it's import how "up to date" this sources is and how reliable it is. Especially this point - the reliability - is the most difficult to come by since it can only be measured in terms of how often a source reported or predicted something, that later became true !

Again, don't get me wrong but we have to wait ...

Deino
 

b787

Captain
Interfax-AVN
United Aircraft Corporation plans in 2015 to begin trials of two more units of fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (T-50), the head of the KLA Mikhail Pogosyan.

"To date, tests are held on four samples of T-50, next year, will connect the two," - said Mikhail Pogosyan reporters on Saturday in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the celebrations to mark the 80th anniversary of Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft plant them. Yuri Gagarin (included in the company "Dry)

"We had planned in 2015 to complete the first stage of state tests fifth generation fighter T-50, and these plans are relevant. We are working hard to make this program was developed in the timeframe that we have stated. Today, in spite of the questions that always arise at various stages of testing, we are generally satisfied with the program, so plan to finish in 2015, the first stage of state tests and start from 2016 aircraft deliveries ", - said the head of the KLA.

Responding to a question about when to start testing the T-50 combat use, M.Pogosyan reported that this information for the benefit of the Defense Ministry were not disclosed.

The first flight of the PAK FA was held on 29 January 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

Compared with the previous generation fighters PAK FA has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.

The use of composite materials and innovative technologies, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared signature. This can significantly increase the combat effectiveness in the work of both air and ground targets at any time of day, and adverse weather conditions.


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Kommersant
Last summer during competition flying skills crews Russian Air Force "Aviadarts" was first publicly demonstrated fifth generation fighter T-50 with a suspended arms - it created a member of the KLA Company "Sukhoi" Sukhoi PAK FA (PAK FA).


Not a glance

PAK FA has all the basic features characteristic of fifth generation fighter. This is primarily a small visibility in the radar and other wavelength ranges, and secondly, the ability to perform cruise at supersonic speeds, thirdly, ultra maneuverability (the so-called super-maneuverability), and, of course, the latest highly automated complex on-board equipment innovative active and passive electronic and opto-electronic systems which serve for the detection of air and ground targets, applying on them a wide range of aircraft weapons, provide flight and navigation, radio communication and group actions, defense against attacks by the enemy.

Low visibility PAK FA is provided by a special form of the airframe, the extensive use of composite materials in the construction, coverings, the presence of internal weapons bays, which house the main part of the payload. The possibility of cruising supersonic flight aircraft owes its high-thrust engines on without afterburner modes. Maneuverability fighter realized by a combination of special algorithms integrated management system and aircraft applications it thrust vectoring engines.

The onboard equipment PAK FA is based on an innovative information management system (IMS) with multiple redundant modern calculators and data buses, which serves as the control and management of all onboard systems and armament of the aircraft. Such ideology IMS is already implemented by "dry" on fighter generation "4 ++" Su-35s coming from the beginning of this year in the Russian Air Force.

The main means of detecting targets, ensuring the use of weapons, as well as solving problems of piloting and defense on board the PAK FA are created NIIP them. VV Tikhomirov (part of the group "Radio-electronic technologies" state corporation "Rostec") multipurpose integrated electronic systems with active phased array antenna (all aboard the aircraft will be five AFAR) and optoelectronic system, developed by the Ural Optical and Mechanical Plant. ES Yalamov (concern "Schwabe" state corporation "Rostec"). In the arms of the PAK FA, including placement in the internal weapons bays, will include how to upgrade the current patterns of serial aircraft weapons, as well as a significant number of new types of guided missiles "air-to-air" and "air-surface" and corrected bombs created Corporation "Tactical Missiles".

By the summer of this year on the flight tests were five prototypes of the PAK FA. The first of these first flew in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, January 29, 2010, and in April of the same year is being tested in Zhukovsky near Moscow. In addition, ground-based experimental work involved two more instances of the aircraft - a comprehensive full-scale stand and model for static tests. The second flight model of the T-50 was tested in Zhukovsky in the summer of 2011, and February 21, 2014 was transferred to the airfield State Flight Test Center. VP Chkalov Russian Defense Ministry Ahtubinsk for state joint tests. The third and fourth aircraft flight models intended primarily for testing complex avionics PAK FA and arms flying through the test program in Zhukovsky since June of 2012 and March 2013th respectively. It is on the third T-50 in summer 2012 in Zhukovsky began flight testing radar AFAR. In October last year in Komsomolsk-on-Amur rose into the sky fifth flight model of the PAK FA, in November 2013, he flew in Zhukovsky.

According to the chief designer of the machine program director PAK FA and the PMI company "Sukhoi" Alexander Davydenko, in this plane, "introduced improvements, born on the basis of previous test machine, it is equipped with the most and almost fully compliant serial combat aircraft."

As the president of KLA Mikhail Pogosyan, the PAK FA prototypes have demonstrated "good reproducibility flight development and bench testing, including radar AESA." According to him, this also applies to the engine, "the thrust of which is 15% more than the AL-31FP, and much more at military power without afterburner modes, providing supersonic cruising." During flight tests (LCI) was also initiated testing of in-flight refueling mode, modes, and so supermaneuverability. D.

Stage factory LCI PAK FA was completed in late 2013. And in 2014, the aircraft brought into the state joint tests, the first stage of which is scheduled to be completed by December 2015, and in 2016 is expected to start delivering the first production aircraft for pilot operation in the Air Force. It was only recently (in air show in the competition flying skills among the Russian Air Force crews) first publicly demonstrated the T-50 with an external suspension arms under the wing.

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A Bar Brother

Junior Member
Do you have link(s) to support any of these figures on build time? I tried but couldn't find any reference materials.

I doubt links are available. But that's how long it takes to build an aircraft through serial production.

The assembly of the Su-30 alone takes 11 months.
 

Brumby

Major
I doubt links are available. But that's how long it takes to build an aircraft through serial production.

The assembly of the Su-30 alone takes 11 months.

If we are to make sense out of this discussion and in the absence of hard data I think it boils down to making a case for our differing views and leave it to others to make their own judgement regarding reasonable and realistic build time for a 5th gen prototype.

In my view, an objective approach is to use information that are comparable and not in essence comparing apples to oranges e.g. serial production vs. prototype. The only recent data out there is the J-20 Chinese prototype (5th Gen) and these are the builds :

2002 - First known testing (10/5/2012)
2011 - First visual sighting (16/1/2014)

The main reason I am using this is because of the nature of the builds and what I can draw a reasonable picture from it. We know that there were significant design changes from 2002 to 2011. Between those dates was a lapse of approx. 18 months. It means after we provide a reasonable period of flight envelope testing, test result analysis, and design changes made, they were then incorporated into prototype 2011 and built. If we assume testing took between 6 - 9 months, then prototype 2011 took between 9 - 12 months to build from a go decision point.

In addition, the following additional prototypes first flew on :
2012 - 26/7/2014
2013 - 29/11/2014
2015 - 19/12/2014

Presumably prototype 2011 and 2012 provided evidence of stability in design which ended up with prototype 2014 and 2015. This means from those dates, I can reasonably conclude that the last 2 prototypes probably took less than 6 months to build.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
If we are to make sense out of this discussion and in the absence of hard data I think it boils down to making a case for our differing views and leave it to others to make their own judgement regarding reasonable and realistic build time for a 5th gen prototype.

In my view, an objective approach is to use information that are comparable and not in essence comparing apples to oranges e.g. serial production vs. prototype. The only recent data out there is the J-20 Chinese prototype (5th Gen) and these are the builds :

2002 - First known testing (10/5/2012)
2011 - First visual sighting (16/1/2014)

The main reason I am using this is because of the nature of the builds and what I can draw a reasonable picture from it. We know that there were significant design changes from 2002 to 2011. Between those dates was a lapse of approx. 18 months. It means after we provide a reasonable period of flight envelope testing, test result analysis, and design changes made, they were then incorporated into prototype 2011 and built. If we assume testing took between 6 - 9 months, then prototype 2011 took between 9 - 12 months to build from a go decision point.

In addition, the following additional prototypes first flew on :
2012 - 26/7/2014
2013 - 29/11/2014
2015 - 19/12/2014

Presumably prototype 2011 and 2012 provided evidence of stability in design which ended up with prototype 2014 and 2015. This means from those dates, I can reasonably conclude that the last 2 prototypes probably took less than 6 months to build.

a very fine hypothesis Mr. Brumby! the AFB will promote you to the head of the class and give you an A! fine accurate assessment based on available data. Unfortunately no matter how we protest that the aircraft incident did not cause a testing delay, they "always do", PAK-FA has suffered one of lifes inevitable setbacks, that those who are designing and flying her will have to work around?
 

b787

Captain
a very fine hypothesis Mr. Brumby! the AFB will promote you to the head of the class and give you an A! fine accurate assessment based on available data. Unfortunately no matter how we protest that the aircraft incident did not cause a testing delay, they "always do", PAK-FA has suffered one of lifes inevitable setbacks, that those who are designing and flying her will have to work around?
An airframe is not all, PAKFA is made by different technologies, some of which are not made by sukhoi, thus while you can say as your personal hypothesis that the T-50 is delayed all the official press releases say they are not, for example, sukhoi has in its page this report by Kommersant

Kommersant
Last summer during competition flying skills crews Russian Air Force "Aviadarts" was first publicly demonstrated fifth generation fighter T-50 with a suspended arms - it created a member of the KLA Company "Sukhoi" Sukhoi PAK FA (PAK FA).

They are testing the PAKFA even in Aviadarts, they have demostrated supercruise, tested already super maneuverability , the AESA radar has been tested, the new KRET navigation system is ready see

Concern Radioelectronic Technologies (KRET) has created an upgraded BINS-SP2M strapdown inertial navigation system for the fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jet that autonomously processes navigation and flight information, determines position and motion parameters in the absence of satellite navigation, and can integrate with GLONASS, Russia’s space-based satellite navigation system.

BINS-SP2M is guaranteed to last at least 10,000 hours, almost twice as long as its foreign counterparts. Moreover, the Russian system has better performance characteristics and can be utilized universally as it can be installed not only in airborne, but also in marine and terrestrial equipment.

The BINS-SP2M navigation system for the T-50 was developed by two KRET enterprises, Moscow Institute of Electromechanics and Automatics (MIEA) and Ramensky Instrument Engineering Plant (RPZ). The equipment is built on the basis of laser gyros and quartz accelerometers, instruments for measuring the acceleration of moving objects.


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They have delivered the Himalaya system see
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, a subsidiary of Rostec Corporation, has delivered the first batch of Himalayas, the innovative electronic warfare (EW) systems, for the T-50 advanced frontline aircraft.

The unique system of active and passive radars and optical rangefinders is integrated into the aircraft body and acts as a “smart skin”. Its use not only enhances the aircraft’s protection against jamming and its survivability, but also counters, to a great extent, the effects of low-observability (stealth) technology of enemy aircraft,
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.

The new Himalayas system was developed by KNIRTI in Kaluga and is being constructed at the Stavropol Radioplant Signal (both are KRET subsidiaries). The new airborne system is a key component of the fifth-generation fighter, reducing its overall weight and enhancing its survivability and combat effectiveness.

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I mean with all due respect, many are crying wolf, all the press releases say Bort 55 is not delaying the flight program because the four extra T-50 are covering for it and 2 more are to be delivered this year, already one static testbed has been dfelivered and they need 2 flying prototypes to be delivered this year
 

Brumby

Major
I just want to clarify a point and that is my hypothesis was simply to determine what is a reasonable build time for a 5th gen prototype based on available comparable data. It does not and cannot prove whether there was a delay to the PAK-FA program as a result of a fire to one of the prototype.
 

Brumby

Major
Unfortunately no matter how we protest that the aircraft incident did not cause a testing delay, they "always do", PAK-FA has suffered one of lifes inevitable setbacks, that those who are designing and flying her will have to work around?

I think the best that you can to is make a case from a logical perspective that due to the expensive nature of prototypes a minimum number required to meet the program timetable would be built. Should there be a loss (as in this case), the program's critical paths cannot be rescheduled sufficiently to prevent a slippage to the program. Without official releases, we just have to let time deliver the truth.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
An airframe is not all, PAKFA is made by different technologies, some of which are not made by sukhoi, thus while you can say as your personal hypothesis that the T-50 is delayed all the official press releases say they are not, for example, sukhoi has in its page this report by Kommersant

Kommersant
Last summer during competition flying skills crews Russian Air Force "Aviadarts" was first publicly demonstrated fifth generation fighter T-50 with a suspended arms - it created a member of the KLA Company "Sukhoi" Sukhoi PAK FA (PAK FA).

They are testing the PAKFA even in Aviadarts, they have demostrated supercruise, tested already super maneuverability , the AESA radar has been tested, the new KRET navigation system is ready see

Concern Radioelectronic Technologies (KRET) has created an upgraded BINS-SP2M strapdown inertial navigation system for the fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jet that autonomously processes navigation and flight information, determines position and motion parameters in the absence of satellite navigation, and can integrate with GLONASS, Russia’s space-based satellite navigation system.

BINS-SP2M is guaranteed to last at least 10,000 hours, almost twice as long as its foreign counterparts. Moreover, the Russian system has better performance characteristics and can be utilized universally as it can be installed not only in airborne, but also in marine and terrestrial equipment.

The BINS-SP2M navigation system for the T-50 was developed by two KRET enterprises, Moscow Institute of Electromechanics and Automatics (MIEA) and Ramensky Instrument Engineering Plant (RPZ). The equipment is built on the basis of laser gyros and quartz accelerometers, instruments for measuring the acceleration of moving objects.


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They have delivered the Himalaya system see
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, a subsidiary of Rostec Corporation, has delivered the first batch of Himalayas, the innovative electronic warfare (EW) systems, for the T-50 advanced frontline aircraft.

The unique system of active and passive radars and optical rangefinders is integrated into the aircraft body and acts as a “smart skin”. Its use not only enhances the aircraft’s protection against jamming and its survivability, but also counters, to a great extent, the effects of low-observability (stealth) technology of enemy aircraft,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

The new Himalayas system was developed by KNIRTI in Kaluga and is being constructed at the Stavropol Radioplant Signal (both are KRET subsidiaries). The new airborne system is a key component of the fifth-generation fighter, reducing its overall weight and enhancing its survivability and combat effectiveness.

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I mean with all due respect, many are crying wolf, all the press releases say Bort 55 is not delaying the flight program because the four extra T-50 are covering for it and 2 more are to be delivered this year, already one static testbed has been dfelivered and they need 2 flying prototypes to be delivered this year

I don't think we are expecting Sukhoi and Russian defense sources to be anything but optimistic or positive in their assessment and projection of the program. Also, I think Deino made it clear that he was saying that all reports on repairing T-50-5 was from right after the accident. So you posting articles for your point from that period doesn't really detract his point. Now that doesn't mean anything that's posted by other people are trustworthy either.

I think we just have to be very careful here about sources we use and what that tells us. Not accepting necessarily everything they tell us, but figuring out a picture that everything paints. I put this out there because here at a Chinese forum, we have to do a lot due to the amount of garbage that gets posted. And I will tell members to take the sources and figure out what they are trying to convey.
 
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