ROCN thread

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Gollevainen said:
there are 46 Dworas according to Weyers.
Their main FACs are the one new FACG 60 boat and two Lung Chiang class boats and one Chiang Choiang class patrol boat armed whit missiles (but I think that most of that class could be armed whit missiles so it would make 12 ship in total. But these are only 25 knots whit top speed)

But most importantly, Both nations lack good modern MCM vessels thougth (at least in theory) both have good minelaying capapility. Mines are still one of the basic stuff in martime warfare and would play important role in possiple conflict. Either Taiwan or PLAN hasen't even fielded modern minesweepers, not to mention minehunters that forms the main body of other modern navyes.

No modern minesweepers eh?
minesweeper060515220200__1_p111.jpg

This new mine sweeper of the PLAN was launched a few days ago. It appears to be a new design. Since the PLAN does make new designs of outdated stuff, we can safely assume this ship is decent in its capabilities.

the PLAN also recieved these new minesweepers in early 2005
cdfblogoo32.jpg


cdfblogoo33.jpg

this ship might show a refit of 814 which was commisioned in the lated 80s.

Besides, the Song and yuan class SSK can lay mines, and so can the sovremenny. And if taiwan doesnt have many minelayers, why does china need many minesweepers?
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Does the Hsiung Feng or any other Taiwanese ASM have truck launched capability? That would be an excellent thing for Taiwan to have. Moblility would greatly increase their survivability and threat level (if the missle can be fired from anywhere, it is harder to defend against.)
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Finn McCool said:
Does the Hsiung Feng or any other Taiwanese ASM have truck launched capability? That would be an excellent thing for Taiwan to have. Moblility would greatly increase their survivability and threat level (if the missle can be fired from anywhere, it is harder to defend against.)

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Taiwan's Truck Mounted Cruise Missile

January 13, 2006: Taiwan has developed yet another version of its Hsiung Feng II anti-ship missile. This one is launched from trucks or fixed launchers, has a range of at least 600 kilometers and is intended to go after targets on the Chinese mainland. Only if China attempts to invade Taiwan, of course. Three prototypes have been built, and production may have already begun. Current plans are for 500 of these one ton Hsiung Feng IIE cruise missiles to be put in service. They will probably use GPS guidance and some stealth features, to make them less liable to getting shot down. Using a more efficient engine, range could be extended to 1,000 kilometers or more. The Hsiung Feng IIE is pretty cheap, about $300,000 each, and carries a 500 pound warhead. The Hsiung Feng IIE project has been kept quiet, with few details released officially. Apparently this was done so as to not alarm the Chinese, at least in public.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I don't know if this would scare the Chinese that much. A truck based cruise missles is obviously used for defensive purposes because if you were planning to attack you would never sacrifice the increased effectiveness of a silo/launcher based missle for the survivability of a truck based missle. But yes, China would not like it for the same reason it doesn't like any sort of arms-related thing Taiwan does.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Well, as I thought of recently, the "sore loser" mentality actually might be a very important factor in this stand-off. It's not so much to scare the Chinese as it is to provide a "we're hitting them back" mindset. It's not necessarily for the leaders of a country, both political and military, but mainly for the civilian population. Since as a rule regular citizens will be the ones who suffer the most from China's Ballistic Missiles, knowing that they're hitting back and not just being curb-stomped makes the suffering from bearable, and least psychologically.

And that's actually a point that is often missed. This psychological effect should not be overlooked since the number one danger in Taiwan's defense is the population's will to fight. (Or at least, sustain the fight)
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Intersting point. I was thinking that the only reason to have truck based missles is to have a second-strike capability. Their mobility allows them to live through a Chinese first strike. Quite a few launcher based missles would also probably survive, but they could be used to hit apartment blocks in Nanjing or whatever before they were knocked out. If you want to use them against the most vunerable Chinese targets in all of the possible war, the ships of the invasion fleet and the beachead, they would have to be survivable. Thus the mobility of a truck launcher or the armour of a hardened launcher. I was thinking from a military point of view. Through my thinking, I would not fire any missles at the mainland, because their effect would be minimal annd their chance of success relatively small, except for at high value targets like a bunch of Zubyrs at dock. I would fire them at ships and beachead targets, where the Chinese would be most vunerable and the effect of the missles would be greatest.

You would fire at mainland targets, including civillian ones, to try to show the PRC that it is in a real war, where people die, including its own civillians. You also would fire at military targets to try to do the same to the PRC that it could do to Taiwan.

I think a prudent commander would go with a mix of both, saving as many missles as possible for the actual invasion but firing enough at the mainland for propaganda purposes.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Well putting aside discussions of what I would do if I was Taiwan Missile Command...

Ballistic missiles aren't very accurate, as we all know. Hitting civilian targets may not actually be a choice, Taiwan may not even have the ability to hit the targets that they are aiming for (military targets).

In all honesty all of my hypothesis was based on the current scenario, so I really hadn't thought of the plausibility of Taiwanese commanders actually using the missiles should conflict arise. In the current situation it's generally a psychological boost for the average citizen (albeit a lose-lose one) although they might actually be a more effective deterrent if the missile are actually better than we give them credit for.

Hell, in fact maybe a smart commander would just pretend to launch missiles at the mainland via propoganda shows, conserving them all to repel the actual invasion, because in truth it would probably be impossible to break the will of the PRC to invade Taiwan even if several coastal cities were hit with Taiwanese Ballistic Missiles.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
MIGleader said:
No modern minesweepers eh?
[qimg]http://www.anyboard.net/gov/mil/anyboard/uploads/minesweeper060515220200__1_p111.jpg[/qimg]
This new mine sweeper of the PLAN was launched a few days ago. It appears to be a new design. Since the PLAN does make new designs of outdated stuff, we can safely assume this ship is decent in its capabilities.

the PLAN also recieved these new minesweepers in early 2005
[qimg]http://www.anyboard.net/gov/mil/anyboard/uploads/cdfblogoo32.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.anyboard.net/gov/mil/anyboard/uploads/cdfblogoo33.jpg[/qimg]
this ship might show a refit of 814 which was commisioned in the lated 80s.

Besides, the Song and yuan class SSK can lay mines, and so can the sovremenny. And if taiwan doesnt have many minelayers, why does china need many minesweepers?


well all do respect, minesweepers arent counted for their hulls, but their sweeping gear. And in modern minewarfare, mine hunters are the key players. the Old T-43's are adequote enough to do the labour, but both chinas need good modern hunters whit remotely controlled drone sweeping boats and diving devices as well as modern explosive sweeps. I havent seen any of them in chinese service. And Taiwan has good number of old US landing ships, all of them capaple of minelaying.

One minesweeper is pretty useless against even small minefield, but one minelayer can lay several of them in only single sortie....

And a constructive example of the effectivenes of minelaying:
In 1939-44 finland had two minelayers whit 100 mine capacity and mine rails in our four sloops whit some 50-40 mine capacity and some smaller crafts and boats whit minor minelaying capacity. We managed to mine the whole Gulf of Finland so well that KBF was completely tied in Kronstads harbour to be easy meal for Luftwaffe. only in 1944 Soviets had some changes of operationality whit smaller boats when our truce came intact. After the war, we had to bear the burden of minesweeping and it took some 200 vessels, all tugs of any sort and size and most of the fisshing fleet effectively moothpalling all other nautical activityes. It took ten years to complete and we were considered as experts of minesweeping.
So you can just count on how much PLAN needs minesweepers as Taiwan has better minelaying volume than we ever have had.

In all do respect, perhaps everyone taking part in naval discussion should pay LITTLE more attention to general naval warfare than just gazing around fancy sthealth destroyers and counting their missiles.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
I know minesweepers arnt counted by hulls, but a new hull should mean new equipment. Would the PLAN put old equipment on a new hull? I dont think so.

China has a large number(30-40) t-43s. As you say, they arnt counted for hull, so the PLAN could easily retrofit them with more modern sweep gear. Plus, the t-43 can lay mines as well as hunt them.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
minesweepers sweeps mines similar manner than trollers fish salmons from the sea. Minehunters hunt mines whit remotly controlled sonars and controll drone minesweepers. Their equipment is rather different and generally the two can be reconise from each others by that hunters tend to have big deckhouses to support the sonarsystems and other fancy eletronics as when sweepers have big sweeping reel and lots of cranes and stuff to lift the sweeps into water.
Sweepers offcourse are more cheaper as their basic methods havent changed much since the end of the WWII. Thougth all new MCM vessels are build in GRP hulls to reduce the effect of magnetic mines.

So far only one of the new chinese desings have seemed quite promising to be hunter, but to my knowlidge, only one has been build.
 
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