ROCN thread

[Gollevainen]

Well few remarks on the modern FAC warfare. They come at best in rugged coastlines whit lots of narrow straits and archipegaloes like in Fenno-Scandia and in north-east mediterenian. but still, the best weapon against them are helicopters whit SSMs, a tactic that proven devastating in Gulf war. To combine this new element to the never solved issue of small hull's capapility to provide stable ennough platform for modern missiles and sensors have generally mented growing size of modern FACs. In fact the whole ship-class has becoming to its end as modern nations prefer more of corvette size ships as primary coastal defence units.
And thats the main new feature that I would like to see in Taiwans inventory after sizeble subfleet. A fleet of 6-10 ships whit 65-90m hull of 700-to 1,800 tons enough to field armament and sensors of missile FAC packed whit good self defence AAW system and some ASW (maybe a helicopter for anti-fac, ASW or mid course targeting). And off course the mentioned helicopter+ssm combination, as PLAN still rely on rather 60'ish desing philoshohpyes in its own FACs.

 

[MIGleader]

Huh? The 22's are very stealthy, i dont see how that is 60s design philosiphy. Also, an ak-630 on eack of the 22's shall be very effective against helicopters.

 

[adeptitus]

During the 1991 Gulf War, the British deployed Lynx Helicopters armed with Sea Skua missiles. A total of 12 Sea Skua missiles (25km range) were used with 100% success rate against Iraqi FAC's.

A decade earlier, during the Falklands War, the British also fired the Sea Skua 8 times with 100% hit ratio against Argentine ships Alférez Sobral (800 ton), Río Carcarañá (8,500 ton) and a patrol boat Río Iguazú.

The Sea Skua only weights 145 kg and carries small 20 kg warhead, which is sufficient to kill or disable most FAC's. It has a published effective range of 25km.

The AK-630 CIWS gun would shred any helicopter, but only has published effective range of 4,000 meters. If you pit a FAC armed with anti-ship missiles + AK-630 CIWS, it's going to get killed by an enemy helicopter w/anti-ship missiles. The CIWS gun is more useful in intercepting missiles, but lack the range to engage aircraft.

To defend against helicopters and aircraft, you need SAM's. The only recent recorded kill on a helicopter by ship dates back to the Falklands, when the Royal Navy had 8 confirmed kills with the Sea Dart missile, of which 1 was friendly fire on a British Gazelle helicopter.

 

[renmin]

The US might supply Taiwan with alot of stuff, but for some reason, America never gives Taiwan any up to date technology, by that I mean high tech stuff. The ROCN to my impression isnt so big; though like the PLAN, is large enough to at least protect the area.

 

[MIGleader]

Why cant the FAC use its ak-630 to shred the sea skua then?
Besides, all taiwan has are army cobras, no threat at all to FACs.

Anyhow, thats why i feel big destroyers are still very important. If you have a DDG loaded with SAMs, no helicopter will dare go near.

 

[Finn McCool]

Anyhow, thats why i feel big destroyers are still very important. If you have a DDG loaded with SAMs, no helicopter will dare go near.

Yes, I agree. DDGs are important, for air defence and to follow up on the confusion and casualties caused by dozens of FACs firing even more missles at the Chinese invasion fleet.

However, I was saying that Taiwan cannot compete with China in the area of DDGs. Besides, DDGs can be killed in a single strike relatively easily. A large number of expendable FACs spread out can be a major problem for an invasion that has to protect a large numbers vunerable amphibious craft.

Basically this is how I think the ROC should hit a Chinese invasion fleet.

-First, send a lot of fighters into the area to make sure you have at least a small amount of time to operate without interference from the PLAAF.

-Then have FACs come in at full speed, firing all of their missles, some at the escorts, some at the amphibious craft.

-Attack aircraft (F-5s and ADIC FCK-1s I suppose) and later helicopters come into to prevent the PLAN ships from having any time to regroup. They fire AGM Mavericks, Harpoons, etc, at the fleet, and/or hit them bombs directly, especially if several escorts have been taken out.

-To deliver the finishing blow, Taiwan's larger ships, (Kidds, Perrys, Lafayettes, and even Knoxes), which up until now had been providing SAM cover, hit the remaining force (which would probably still be quite large) with everything they have.

-A screening force of F-16s and Mirages would attempt to prevent PLAAF interference, and take out vunerable enemy aircraft, like helicopters.

Essentially the plan is to not give the PLAN time to regroup and focus on the fact that they don't have Aegis or very good command and control.
The ROC would probably take heavy casualties, but the idea would be to overwhelm the PLAN and escape with minimum casualties, because the ships and planes would flee as soon as they had discharged their weapons. Combined with land based missles, I think this would do a lot of damage. It might even kill enough landing craft to postpone or prevent an invasion.

 

[SteelBird]

Basically this is how I think the ROC should hit a Chinese invasion fleet.

-First, send a lot of fighters into the area to make sure you have at least a small amount of time to operate without interference from the PLAAF.

-Then have FACs come in at full speed, firing all of their missles, some at the escorts, some at the amphibious craft.

-Attack aircraft (F-5s and ADIC FCK-1s I suppose) and later helicopters come into to prevent the PLAN ships from having any time to regroup. They fire AGM Mavericks, Harpoons, etc, at the fleet, and/or hit them bombs directly, especially if several escorts have been taken out.

-To deliver the finishing blow, Taiwan's larger ships, (Kidds, Perrys, Lafayettes, and even Knoxes), which up until now had been providing SAM cover, hit the remaining force (which would probably still be quite large) with everything they have.

-A screening force of F-16s and Mirages would attempt to prevent PLAAF interference, and take out vunerable enemy aircraft, like helicopters.

When we play chess, we say a joke like this "after you, it's my turn", so you won't play chess with both hands. The above assumption is just like that the PLA go there just for being your target. It's not movie, and you aren't Rambo. Have you ever seen how US troops strike? That's the way!

 

[Gollevainen]

Huh? The 22's are very stealthy, i dont see how that is 60s design philosiphy. Also, an ak-630 on eack of the 22's shall be very effective against helicopters.

yes they are sthelthy and quite avanced in their hydrodynamical performance, but still suprisingly inflexible desing that makes them no use out side the Kuznetsov-era of soviet coastal defence tactics. They are fast and guite invisible but thats all they are. The small desing and catamaran hull makes them unsuitable for long periods of sea voyages and as in all small and fast boats, I doupt that the systems onboard can work in rough seas. All defensive armament onboard all almoust like joke...no real thread to any air opponent as we all remember that AK-630 cannot even move while shooting.

So I would say that Taiwan should invest in either Penguin, Gabriel, Sea SKua or AS-15 armed ten ton size helicopters whit radars and other required systems.

 

[MIGleader]

I dont think so. If you notice the turret of the ak-630, you will notice it has a revised, stealthier design. Now, this might not have been the only design change...this might be a new model ak-630.

For some reason finn, I dont think the PLAN would send in the invasion fleet without achieving a good degree of air superiority over taiwan, and without siezing control of the strait. Doing so would be plain stupid, as the taiwanese would almost certainly do some major damage to undprotected transports. Once again, to do this, china needs its DDGs.

and soon, china will have its ka-29s to attack any taiwanese FACs.

 

[renmin]

Yes, I agree. DDGs are important, for air defence and to follow up on the confusion and casualties caused by dozens of FACs firing even more missles at the Chinese invasion fleet.

However, I was saying that Taiwan cannot compete with China in the area of DDGs. Besides, DDGs can be killed in a single strike relatively easily. A large number of expendable FACs spread out can be a major problem for an invasion that has to protect a large numbers vunerable amphibious craft.

Basically this is how I think the ROC should hit a Chinese invasion fleet.

-First, send a lot of fighters into the area to make sure you have at least a small amount of time to operate without interference from the PLAAF.

-Then have FACs come in at full speed, firing all of their missles, some at the escorts, some at the amphibious craft.

-Attack aircraft (F-5s and ADIC FCK-1s I suppose) and later helicopters come into to prevent the PLAN ships from having any time to regroup. They fire AGM Mavericks, Harpoons, etc, at the fleet, and/or hit them bombs directly, especially if several escorts have been taken out.

-To deliver the finishing blow, Taiwan's larger ships, (Kidds, Perrys, Lafayettes, and even Knoxes), which up until now had been providing SAM cover, hit the remaining force (which would probably still be quite large) with everything they have.

-A screening force of F-16s and Mirages would attempt to prevent PLAAF interference, and take out vunerable enemy aircraft, like helicopters.

Essentially the plan is to not give the PLAN time to regroup and focus on the fact that they don't have Aegis or very good command and control.
The ROC would probably take heavy casualties, but the idea would be to overwhelm the PLAN and escape with minimum casualties, because the ships and planes would flee as soon as they had discharged their weapons. Combined with land based missles, I think this would do a lot of damage. It might even kill enough landing craft to postpone or prevent an invasion.

This attempt will not work. There is no way that the PLAN would send out their navy without air support. With the stike navy there will be flankers and j-10s. Next there is no way some puny gun boats could stand up to the subs and destroyers not to mention naval helicopters. As for the big ships, taiwan only has a few. China is sending in a huge fleet filled with subs and large destroyers. Those f16s and mirages will just as equally be eleminated by the DDGs and fighters. This is not command and conquer and China is deffinantly not the computer.