QBZ-191 service rifle family

totenchan

Junior Member
Registered Member
from this picture of the handguard being removed the iron sight seem to be still attached on the handguard with screw in it maybe the barrel is actually free floated with one point of contact at the chamber but without the real thing one can never be sure
Did you read the thread? Its already been established that the metal sleeve with the sight on it is fastened to the handguard. The argument is over whether or not it actually dovetails into the gas block as well. In fact, you can clearly see the rail for the dovetail in the image you provided. If it isn't dovetailed it would mean the front sight is in fact floating above the barrel on nothing but a piece of polymer, in which case any movement of the polymer handguard would change the position of the front sight.
Yes the barrel is free floated the screws are bolted onto a free floating tube.
If this is true then the gun is doomed. 99 percent of the troops we see are using iron sights only.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
That's because they are not dumb fucks who give a shit about barbie dolling their firearms unlike the US Army who bought the MCX Spear that is absolutely good for nothing when a Modified M4A1 does the job just as good making it more costly ineffectively forcing them to swap out ammunition.
Saru Chill.
first what you call “Barbie Dolling” is intended for a set of reasons. Primarily to engage 24/7 operations, but if you are not aware of this fact half the day cycle is night and it’s kinda dark outside.
Despite the whole “Nyet Rifle is fine” meme. The QBZ191 shows the PLA are adding as many accessories as the PLA logistics can cope with. Red dots, low powered Prism optics, LPVOs, suppressors, laser pointers, bipods, vertical fore grips.
Second The US Army will be returning the M4A1 rifle to its original intended purpose a Personal Defense weapon. The aim of the XM7 and XM250 is due to the fact that as the U.S. Army retired the M16A4 they pushed a weapon with a shorter range and less penetration into the mission. It’s an argument of intended doctrine. Armies live and die by doctrine and the Question of how Infantry is to deal with Infantry now in armor. The U.S. Army and apparently the Russians are interested in extending the range of the infantry and penetration of the infantry. The logic is that realistically speaking 5.8x42mm, 5.45x39mm and 5.56x45mm are tied in range and general performance of penetration. Combine that with roughly equal armor and technology of artillery and fire support it’s a case created for stagnation.

It already has flaws that has to be fixed, fixing those issues is going to get expensive when they realize how many of their soldiers received the gun. Wait that actually happened well there goes your tax money. Now they have to get another batch of improved models.
Every new system has teething issues. Just look up the QBZ95’s issues. Look at the AK took three generations to fix issues of production and still took longer for improvements. The M16’s decades of internal conflict in the U.S. Army the M4 today still has issues due to its current configuration being dated and the M855A1 ammunition eating up parts. No system is perfect and there are always issues that need to be fixed.
This is why prioritizing the next generation firearms and gear for Special Forces and CTU's etc.. is Smarter and Cheaper it allows them to trouble shoot the gun without having to replace them at mass scale if possible.
But in the process you give up economy of scale and you have a fundamental problem with your argument as you are comparing the U.S. economics vs the Chinese economics. The thing although the U.S. has a higher PPP the U.S. also has a civilian population who will happily gobble up military style rifles and equipment. This allows rifle manufacturers like FN and Sig to pass segments of the Overhead manufacturing costs to the civilian market reducing the military per unit cost.
So well a civilian Sig Spear or a FN scar L may cost $4-5K a government agency can buy 2-4 military models for the same price. Because lots of the bits and bobs are taken from the same commercial lines. Hell the whole cycle started with a commercial product that was improved then standardized. The weaver rail which then became the Arms rail that then became standard on the M4/M4A1 and G36. From there it gained universal adoption because SOCOM might buy something. Then commercial shooters bought clones and the same parts creating a cycle where commercial products fold into military equipment.
The Chinese system is a bit of a mix on this but cost per unit manufactured is skewed by the fact that it’s a state owned company. So polymer vs Alloy isn’t that big a price difference especially with modern tooling.
There's really no point in introducing a more highly modular and extravagant firearm if it's going to get replaced in the foreseen future.

I bet there's already a QBZ191 V2 in the making but that probably won't be disclosed after a few years.
The reason they are modular is so that to save money you can replace the outdated parts. That was likely the reason we see the QBZ191 as opposed to an improved QBZ95. Because rather than trying to finagle modernization into the Bullpup rifle the AR template allows obsolete parts swap. Just look at the Israeli “M4” rifles. They are often a mix of 50 years of AR15 parts kitbashed into a modern combat rifle.
 

pikusharp1

New Member
Registered Member
Did you read the thread? Its already been established that the metal sleeve with the sight on it is fastened to the handguard. The argument is over whether or not it actually dovetails into the gas block as well. In fact, you can clearly see the rail for the dovetail in the image you provided. If it isn't dovetailed it would mean the front sight is in fact floating above the barrel on nothing but a piece of polymer, in which case any movement of the polymer handguard would change the position of the front sight.

If this is true then the gun is doomed. 99 percent of the troops we see are using iron sights only.
Looking at the picture again I think we are both wrong but you are half right the handguard might not be free floated but its not dovetailed there is a take down pin poking out of the top front of the handguard which I think go through the slot on the top of the gas block both are in red circle. I found this one video of a 191 airsoft replica disassembly that show how it work, Its an replica so take it with a grain of salt. although since the takedown pin is also present in the real thing I am inclined to believe its accurate.
 

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
All this obsession with a hand guard is frankly bizarre and only serve to show that the people involved don’t have any first had experience with firearms and night shooting.

Newsflash, even metal hand guards gives you POI shifts. I can induce a POI shift on my metal hand guard mounted LAM just by changing holding stances.

The ugly truth is that night fighting with LAM sucks for accuracy to start with. It is short ranged, has limited accuracy and is a total no go if opfor have even Gen1 NODs.

The west got away with it because their opponents during the GWOT didn’t have any night fighting capabilities beyond mk1 eyeballs.

China knows it’s infantry will be facing opfor with night vision, that is why it has no appetite for mass issue of LAM, and will only use them for niche roles such as CQB and target designation for friendly assets. None of those uses will be impacted by the material of the hand guard.

For more general purpose night combat, the PLA have consistently favoured dedicated night vision, and increasingly these days, thermal weapons sights.

The big reason for the pict rail is for allowing quick swapping of day and night optics with minimal zero shift.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
All this obsession with a hand guard is frankly bizarre and only serve to show that the people involved don’t have any first had experience with firearms and night shooting.

Newsflash, even metal hand guards gives you POI shifts. I can induce a POI shift on my metal hand guard mounted LAM just by changing holding stances.
If the mount is iffy yes. This is really the question of monolithic vs bolt on vs delta. It’s also a question of materials and construction.
The ugly truth is that night fighting with LAM sucks for accuracy to start with. It is short ranged, has limited accuracy and is a total no go if opfor have even Gen1 NODs.

The west got away with it because their opponents during the GWOT didn’t have any night fighting capabilities beyond mk1 eyeballs.

China knows it’s infantry will be facing opfor with night vision, that is why it has no appetite for mass issue of LAM, and will only use them for niche roles such as CQB and target designation for friendly assets. None of those uses will be impacted by the material of the hand guard.
True to a point. That point is that many clip on night vision devices attach forward of the day sight which makes a solid RAS important.
farther you have to deal with trying to move around. A weapon mounted night vision system is fine if you’re stationary not so much if you’re moving or doing anything that isn’t aiming the weapon. The lam was so you could engage from a head mounted NOD.
yes it had its limitations.
But as most infantry combat is two forces stumbling onto each other short range is fine. Hell most NODs are only going to see a few hundred feet. Maybe a km if you have top of the line model.

For more general purpose night combat, the PLA have consistently favoured dedicated night vision, and increasingly these days, thermal weapons sights.

The big reason for the pict rail is for allowing quick swapping of day and night optics with minimal zero shift.
Which though I have been defending alloy rails systems I admit is a bit dated.
increasingly we are seeing a shift that may make polymer rails more valid again.
The key issue with using a dedicated night sight is it requires both a return to zero capable mount which is a tall order even on an M1913 rail and time to make the transition from a day sight to night sight. Farther you have eye relief distance on magnified optics. Making sure you index the sight back where it should be every time.
one of the best work around on this was the clip on night sight which required a rail system that could hold zero. As most mounted in front of a magnified optical sight. Where a rear mounted system tented to favor a non magnified sight like a Holographic, Prismatic or red dot.
Now however that’s less an issue due to hybrid day night sights. Meprolight out of Israel and Holosun (Hwoyoung’s American brand) has been selling commercial thermal imaging systems inside holographic sights for a few years the later even has a pistol sized offering. It’s likely not long before Magnified optics start porting that technology.
Still for use with a bipod a more rigid mounting system is preferred.
 

Saru

Junior Member
Registered Member
Saru Chill.
first what you call “Barbie Dolling” is intended for a set of reasons. Primarily to engage 24/7 operations, but if you are not aware of this fact half the day cycle is night and it’s kinda dark outside.
Despite the whole “Nyet Rifle is fine” meme. The QBZ191 shows the PLA are adding as many accessories as the PLA logistics can cope with. Red dots, low powered Prism optics, LPVOs, suppressors, laser pointers, bipods, vertical fore grips.
Second The US Army will be returning the M4A1 rifle to its original intended purpose a Personal Defense weapon. The aim of the XM7 and XM250 is due to the fact that as the U.S. Army retired the M16A4 they pushed a weapon with a shorter range and less penetration into the mission. It’s an argument of intended doctrine. Armies live and die by doctrine and the Question of how Infantry is to deal with Infantry now in armor. The U.S. Army and apparently the Russians are interested in extending the range of the infantry and penetration of the infantry. The logic is that realistically speaking 5.8x42mm, 5.45x39mm and 5.56x45mm are tied in range and general performance of penetration. Combine that with roughly equal armor and technology of artillery and fire support it’s a case created for stagnation.


Every new system has teething issues. Just look up the QBZ95’s issues. Look at the AK took three generations to fix issues of production and still took longer for improvements. The M16’s decades of internal conflict in the U.S. Army the M4 today still has issues due to its current configuration being dated and the M855A1 ammunition eating up parts. No system is perfect and there are always issues that need to be fixed.

But in the process you give up economy of scale and you have a fundamental problem with your argument as you are comparing the U.S. economics vs the Chinese economics. The thing although the U.S. has a higher PPP the U.S. also has a civilian population who will happily gobble up military style rifles and equipment. This allows rifle manufacturers like FN and Sig to pass segments of the Overhead manufacturing costs to the civilian market reducing the military per unit cost.
So well a civilian Sig Spear or a FN scar L may cost $4-5K a government agency can buy 2-4 military models for the same price. Because lots of the bits and bobs are taken from the same commercial lines. Hell the whole cycle started with a commercial product that was improved then standardized. The weaver rail which then became the Arms rail that then became standard on the M4/M4A1 and G36. From there it gained universal adoption because SOCOM might buy something. Then commercial shooters bought clones and the same parts creating a cycle where commercial products fold into military equipment.
The Chinese system is a bit of a mix on this but cost per unit manufactured is skewed by the fact that it’s a state owned company. So polymer vs Alloy isn’t that big a price difference especially with modern tooling.

The reason they are modular is so that to save money you can replace the outdated parts. That was likely the reason we see the QBZ191 as opposed to an improved QBZ95. Because rather than trying to finagle modernization into the Bullpup rifle the AR template allows obsolete parts swap. Just look at the Israeli “M4” rifles. They are often a mix of 50 years of AR15 parts kitbashed into a modern combat rifle.

Now you're just making excuses in no way is the MCX Spear Gen 1 any more superior to the M4A1 the definition of barbie dolling is excessive ergonomics that isn't necessary especially if it's more expensive sacrificing a lot of lightweight just for a few more gimmicks while the M4A1 is specifically modified for a certain operation.

In what ranges can the M4A1 and M16A4 not cover that the MCX Spear for less the price? What world do you live in? There's no point in investing in Firearms that excessively if every war will be fought in the future with drones, missiles and air vehicles.

The MCX Spear has to still be modified regardlessly it's just a new fresh cover of paint with pre built ambidextrous features given soldiers that won't fight a war that require such investment

It's a waste of time and money, look at the annex of Ukraine, The Army uses drones against the second most powerful army proved to be extremely effective.

In the end Wars will be fought with technological prowess not expired meat.

And the fact that the MCX Spear is only suited for a few specific purposes while boasting it's Caliber capability such instance is rare when encountering Terrorists, if we are talking about War with Foreign infantry sorry to break it for you but they already use Ceramic (Level III/III+) resistant to 7'62mm to some extent.

Sounds more like a contingency weapon, America is thinking the possibility of war with a foreign country is likely yet here we are still without rising tensions going on across the world.

And even if there was a World War 3 it wouldn't be fought with Firearms it would be fought with advanced technology that go boom, Israel and Ukraine is good examples of this.

Israel took down about every single building in Gaza not giving a shit about the hostages after all their whole intention isn't a CTU operation it's a Genocide, while Ukraine is defending themselves with drones that took out a whole ammunition storage resulted an explosion 200-240 tons of high explosives detonating, and it covered an area of approximately 6 kilometers (3.7 miles).

Maybe US should have invested that money in drones instead of new fresh cover of paint.
 
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Saru

Junior Member
Registered Member
Did you read the thread? Its already been established that the metal sleeve with the sight on it is fastened to the handguard. The argument is over whether or not it actually dovetails into the gas block as well. In fact, you can clearly see the rail for the dovetail in the image you provided. If it isn't dovetailed it would mean the front sight is in fact floating above the barrel on nothing but a piece of polymer, in which case any movement of the polymer handguard would change the position of the front sight.

If this is true then the gun is doomed. 99 percent of the troops we see are using iron sights only.
The gun isn't doomed, The Handguard is exactly what the HK416 does while the Gasblock touches the Handguard that is not the importance, the important part is the Barrel not touching nor in any shape or form connected to the handguard, Similar to the 416 it is likey the Barrel is flexible and lose without connecting the gas block and the barrel too tightly just enough for the barrel to vibrate freely.

If the Gun was doomed then PLA wouldn't take notes from the 416.
 
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