Doesn't anyone still know what is the price of the QBZ-191? Or the QMK-152 sight?
QBZ-191 service rifle family
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
Yikes.
As written by others, they are not holding the barrel directly. They are holding the handguard.
That's the way virtually all rifles work -- your hand shouldn't directly touch the barrel, because after a few shots, you can bet the barrel is gonna get really really hot and you're gonna burn yourself.
PeoplesPoster
Junior Member
also vertical grips are going the way of the dodo as operators are finding that you lose a lot of control with the vert grip, also its clumsy as heck.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
No it’s not. The preference of VFG vs none is a question of what you are trying to do. Clumsiness on them is often when trying to use it in a manor it wasn’t intended for.
The VFG as a tool is meant to correct a couple issues that came in CQB it was originally an SMG thing. As small caliber high velocity rifles began being shortened to CQB configurations one of the first choices made was to shorten the length of the barrel and in turn the hand guards.
It was quickly realized that this inhibits getting maximum purchase on the weapon resulting in reduced stability. When very short to the point of nonexistent handguards appeared on bullpup rifles like the AUG it was made beyond blatant that a solution was needed and realized that one already existed. Although the Bullpups balance more like a pistol in selective fire they have similar control issues. The SMG encountered similar issues Shooters began using the magazine well as a grip. Soon some makers added dedicated grips. Like the Chicago typewriter Tommy gun.
When M16 was shortened to M4 Colt reused elements of the Car 15 which as built with a 10 inch barrel as a PDW gun.
But they put a 14.5 inch barrel on it so as to allow mounting a bayonet. When soldiers began house to house fighting they in turn favored M4 and optics but realized they wanted more control of the weapon. The foregrip came in as it give the soldier the physical leverage point to control the gun and generally helps keep shooters from putting their hands on the barrel or worse in line of the muzzle especially on very short barreled weapons.
The reduced want of such is as many shooters are favoring longer shots building mid length guns with longer guards using a C clamp technique or an angled foregrip to get the same leverage.
For the QBZ191 or AK12 it has a classic M4/AK ratio of barrel to guard & in shorter iterations the Mk18/AKS74U for the QBZ191B and AK12K the length of purchase will likely favor a VFG. Well weapons like the Sig MCX SPEAR in 6.8x51mm will have a long enough length of rail that additional purchase isn’t needed.
The VFG as a tool is meant to correct a couple issues that came in CQB it was originally an SMG thing. As small caliber high velocity rifles began being shortened to CQB configurations one of the first choices made was to shorten the length of the barrel and in turn the hand guards.
It was quickly realized that this inhibits getting maximum purchase on the weapon resulting in reduced stability. When very short to the point of nonexistent handguards appeared on bullpup rifles like the AUG it was made beyond blatant that a solution was needed and realized that one already existed. Although the Bullpups balance more like a pistol in selective fire they have similar control issues. The SMG encountered similar issues Shooters began using the magazine well as a grip. Soon some makers added dedicated grips. Like the Chicago typewriter Tommy gun.
When M16 was shortened to M4 Colt reused elements of the Car 15 which as built with a 10 inch barrel as a PDW gun.
But they put a 14.5 inch barrel on it so as to allow mounting a bayonet. When soldiers began house to house fighting they in turn favored M4 and optics but realized they wanted more control of the weapon. The foregrip came in as it give the soldier the physical leverage point to control the gun and generally helps keep shooters from putting their hands on the barrel or worse in line of the muzzle especially on very short barreled weapons.
The reduced want of such is as many shooters are favoring longer shots building mid length guns with longer guards using a C clamp technique or an angled foregrip to get the same leverage.
For the QBZ191 or AK12 it has a classic M4/AK ratio of barrel to guard & in shorter iterations the Mk18/AKS74U for the QBZ191B and AK12K the length of purchase will likely favor a VFG. Well weapons like the Sig MCX SPEAR in 6.8x51mm will have a long enough length of rail that additional purchase isn’t needed.
Does anyone have any solid numbers on the effective range of the QBZ-191? Wiki says the effective range is 400m, and while that's a trash source, it seems to agree with numbers I've seen elsewhere - however, they could just be quoting from the same source. If it's true, that seems a little short for a new rifle. The M4 carbine has an effective range of 500m. What's the deal with that?
I also wonder how widely issued AP ammunition is. Presumably in a peer engagement against armoured infantry, getting through the enemy plate would be desirable. Does standard issue ammunition do that well?
I also wonder how widely issued AP ammunition is. Presumably in a peer engagement against armoured infantry, getting through the enemy plate would be desirable. Does standard issue ammunition do that well?
We don't know yet for certain.
We will likely have to wait for a detailed magazine coverage of the rifle to even get general ballistics information.
And yes, avoid Wikipedia for this.
We don't even have exact numbers for barrel lengths.
But FWIW Wikipedia also writes the QBZ-95 has a point range of 400m for the rifle variant (which has a longer barrel than M4 and the standard QBZ191), so make of it what you will.
I personally won't be surprised if they just copy and pasted some 95 numbers over to 191.
Also, just because the M4 is called a "carbine" it is still a 14.5 inch barrel.
We don't know the exact length of the barrel of the standard rifle 191 variant, but it is probably similar (14.5-15 inches).
The carbine 191 variant OTOH looks more like an equivalent to the Mk18 CQBR which can be viewed as a carbine variant of the M4 carbine.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
400m-500m is the the norm for a intermediate caliber rifle fired with either a reflex or low power magnified optic. As such the Wiki entry actually makes sense. Unless the caliber is increased to a full power rifle cartridge or you have a very low drag highly tuned cartridge optimized for long range like 6.5 grendel with a heavy profile barrel and precision built rifle as standard issue with a LPVO as general issue, beyond that is a hard argument.
Last edited:
We currently still do not know the length of the barrel for the standard 191 and we also do not know the ballistics of the new bullet that it will be using. Every since the first couple pages here we knew there will be a new bullet but still no info on it in 2021.
That said, a difference of 100m (which is 25% of 400m) between an M4 and a similar length 191 rifle variant, would be not insignificant, if both measures were against equal targets with similar optics etc, under similar environments, given both are indeed intermediate calibres with similar barrel lengths and presumably using similarly optimized rounds for their given barrel lengths.
I suspect the true number of both rifles under equal conditions is not something that is available to us, much in the same way that comparisons of AAM range between different missiles is dependent on a heap of assumptions and environmental parameters as well.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I suspect the 400m range is based off estimates from the legacy QBZ95. That’s why I gave a range. The QBZ95 was officially listed at an effective range of 400m with the QBZ95B of 300m. Optics would probably improve that if of quality and with training out to 500m and 400m respectively assuming ammo makes up for velocity lost by shorter barrel.
Truth is the number is based on doctrine more than anything else. Put a great shooter with even irons behind an M4A1. A guy who knows his dope by heart. He can hit targets at 800m.
I suspect the same would be true for the QBZ191. It’s kinda like EPA estimates on a car. In the right circumstances you are going to get better than estimates in others worse. The question is is the estimate more optimistic or conservative. 400-500 meters is basically where it should sit assuming trained infantry and not a Captain China super soldier.
Truth is the number is based on doctrine more than anything else. Put a great shooter with even irons behind an M4A1. A guy who knows his dope by heart. He can hit targets at 800m.
I suspect the same would be true for the QBZ191. It’s kinda like EPA estimates on a car. In the right circumstances you are going to get better than estimates in others worse. The question is is the estimate more optimistic or conservative. 400-500 meters is basically where it should sit assuming trained infantry and not a Captain China super soldier.