PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

What I read on Chinese forum is that these will be new builds, which would make sense with the delivery time. I don't think it actually takes that long to build 035Gs, but it probably will take a while to set up the infrastructure in Bangladesh for submarines. And I'm sure the cost includes all the training and support for 035G, but sitll seems strange they are building 035G instead of Songs.

I have to believe that if they are indeed Mings as the article indicates, then they have to be some of the newer Mings that the PLAN has which they will take out of service in that time frame and transfer to Bangladesh. New build Mings just does not make sense to me.

My guess is that you are correct and there is a lot more involved that is being paid for than just the two subs. Inrastructure development being assisted by the the PRC, training, spare parts, etc. all incuded in that price.

Does make you wonder why they were either not offered Songs or did not select them if they were.

Then again, the oldest Song will be only what? 20 years old in that time frame? So the PLAN may not be ready to give any of those up yet.

 

[chuck731]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Just because they are an old model doesn't mean they are cheap to build. I would be curious to know what the cost of building a Ming vs a Song now really would be. $80-100 million for a Ming and $200+ million for a Song doesn't seem implausible to me.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Just because they are an old model doesn't mean they are cheap to build. I would be curious to know what the cost of building a Ming vs a Song now really would be. $80-100 million for a Ming and $200+ million for a Song doesn't seem implausible to me.

Well, I would be surprised if they are new builds. As far as I know, the last Ming builds were completed in 2003, over ten years ago.

The history of the Ming varies depending on source. They were a follow on to the Type 033 Romeo boats that were built based on the plans the Soviets gave the Chinese in 1963. This was at first, an improved design and the first Ming, designated Type 035 was laid down in 1969, launched in 1971, and commissioned in 1974. By 1979 a total of three Type 035s had been constructed.

Then, between December of 1982 and 1990, an improved variety (increased speed significantly) designated Type 035A was built and four of those units were manufactured and put in service.

New sonars, better weapons and torpedoes, etc. were implementd between Decemebr 1990 and 1999 into twelve new units that were called the Type 035G.

Finally, as I understand it, the last version, Type 035B, with an improved Fire Control Systems, sonar absorbing tiles, and constructed 2m longer were built...I believe 4 units of those were made, which Franco-Russe referred to, and completed between 1999 and 2003.

So, I honestly believe that these vessels going to Bangladesh are probably going to be retiring PLAN Ming boats from probably either the Type 035G or Type 035B variants.

I believe the price includes a lot of extras like spare parts, training, maintenance, and possible infrastucture, and that the straight submarine cost is propbably a good deal below $100 million each.

I guess time will tell.

 

[exeter]

»Ø¸´: PLAN submarines Thread II

Hi guys , I have seen some info about Oak-Ridge nuclear research lab and China Shangai nucs lab, going fwd with Thorium Nuclear propulsion system...So i have question , does PLAN have in planning for next 10-20 years any advanced SSN or SSBN...thnks

 

[plawolf]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Well, I would be surprised if they are new builds. As far as I know, the last Ming builds were completed in 2003, over ten years ago.

The history of the Ming varies depending on source. They were a follow on to the Type 033 Romeo boats that were built based on the plans the Soviets gave the Chinese in 1963. This was at first, an improved design and the first Ming, designated Type 035 was laid down in 1969, launched in 1971, and commissioned in 1974. By 1979 a total of three Type 035s had been constructed.

Then, between December of 1982 and 1990, an improved variety (increased speed significantly) designated Type 035A was built and four of those units were manufactured and put in service.

New sonars, better weapons and torpedoes, etc. were implementd between Decemebr 1990 and 1999 into twelve new units that were called the Type 035G.

Finally, as I understand it, the last version, Type 035B, with an improved Fire Control Systems, sonar absorbing tiles, and constructed 2m longer were built...I believe 4 units of those were made, which Franco-Russe referred to, and completed between 1999 and 2003.

So, I honestly believe that these vessels going to Bangladesh are probably going to be retiring PLAN Ming boats from probably either the Type 035G or Type 035B variants.

I believe the price includes a lot of extras like spare parts, training, maintenance, and possible infrastucture, and that the straight submarine cost is propbably a good deal below $100 million each.

I guess time will tell.

Excellent post, very informative.

I would echo your sentiment that the deal would include a lot of extras, and would not just be for the boats themselves.

Something that occurred to me is the timeframe of this proposed deal could have a significance greater than what has been thought of thus far.

2019 is a very long time away, especially for second hand boats. I doubt financing is the hold up given China's past history of granting soft loans to help poorer nations finance large arms deals.

I suspect 2019 is when the PLAN will finally retire all their Mings (well probably earlier, like 2017/18 to give the shipyard time to refurbish the boats before delivery), and with the type removed from service by the PLAN.

That would mean the PLAN would no long need all the spares, training equipment, maintenance facilities and all the back end support systems and infrastructure needed to keep the subs operational, and all that equipment would likely be included in the deal with Bangladesh.

That would explain when the deal is worth so much, and also why Bangladesh would want to buy Mings in 2019.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I suspect 2019 is when the PLAN will finally retire all their Mings (well probably earlier, like 2017/18 to give the shipyard time to refurbish the boats before delivery), and with the type removed from service by the PLAN.

That would mean the PLAN would no long need all the spares, training equipment, maintenance facilities and all the back end support systems and infrastructure needed to keep the subs operational, and all that equipment would likely be included in the deal with Bangladesh.

That would explain when the deal is worth so much, and also why Bangladesh would want to buy Mings in 2019.

Makes perfect since and is probably precisely the reason....goes hand in hand with what Franco-Russe said in his post 5-6 posts ago.

 

[A.Man]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Makes perfect since and is probably precisely the reason....goes hand in hand with what Franco-Russe said in his post 5-6 posts ago.

If the Great Grand Marshall Kim III was little nicer, China would give those subs to them for free.

What's up all day?

I am on my way to Shanghai, China.

Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year.

 

[antiterror13]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

If the Great Grand Marshall Kim III was little nicer, China would give those subs to them for free.

What's up all day?

I am on my way to Shanghai, China.

Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year.

I don't think so, even Ming is somewhat obsolete, but it's still very dangerous subs. It would upset SK greatly

 

[latenlazy]

Re: »Ø¸´: PLAN submarines Thread II

Hi guys , I have seen some info about Oak-Ridge nuclear research lab and China Shangai nucs lab, going fwd with Thorium Nuclear propulsion system...So i have question , does PLAN have in planning for next 10-20 years any advanced SSN or SSBN...thnks

The Type 095 and the Type 097, though the latter might as well be vaporware and the former is rather elusive and may not be in testing yet.

 

[delft]

Re: »Ø¸´: PLAN submarines Thread II

Hi guys , I have seen some info about Oak-Ridge nuclear research lab and China Shangai nucs lab, going fwd with Thorium Nuclear propulsion system...So i have question , does PLAN have in planning for next 10-20 years any advanced SSN or SSBN...thnks

The news was, some two years ago, that the problems with the concept were solved - that would I think refer to the fuel processing - and that the first reactor is to be built by 2020. That likely refers to the civilian use of these reactors but the naval reactors might be expected around the same time. Seeing the advantages of these reactors - a much higher operating temperature so a higher efficiency and a much lower thermal power for a given electrical output - a more compact and lighter plant - the absorption of many of the neutrons produced by the Thorium splitting to produce Uranium so a much lower weight of lead shielding - these reactors must be irresistable for nuclear boats and for flattops and their support groups. But it is much too early for any rumors about PLAN's planning to appear.