PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Yorkie]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

What Did This Guy Do?

Since you asked, I just Googled him. He's an expert in U.S. defense policy and international securities, currently an Associate Director at MIT of Security Studies program.

 

[NikeX]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

That was the author's scenario. I most certainly would not if i were the armed chair admiral. Pump jets may allow higher speed before the onset, but they too will cavitate. At 200m water, which means 150m-160m operating depth, do you think a sub can run 15 knots w/o cavitating? Once you hit someome with a torpedo, 15 knots is hardly the getaway speed a sub skipper would like to do, especially when going deep is not an option.

In an operational scenario the attacking SSN would use an off axis torpedo attack to where the torpedo swam out from the sub and via its wire guidance conducted the attack at long range. With the SSN long gone from the datum of the attack and having deployed smart decoys that mimic its signature the responding forces stand a good chance of attacking a patch of empty ocean while the SSN made good its escape.

Another tactic would be for the SSN to have pre-surveyed the battle area sea floor and after launching the attack head to an undersea wreck and lay low near this wreck while launching a decoy that mimicked its signature in all respects and having this decoy travel at high speed in the opposite direction from the SSN. When the responding forces chasing the decoy were far enough away the SSN, would move off quietly and escape.

My point is that advanced SSN's like the SeaWolf and Virginia class submarines offer many options to use clever tactics to conduct attacks and live to fight another day. Years of facing the Russians has honed these crews to a fine edge

Brilliant Decoy:

A device launched from a submarine's torpedo tube, which is intended to conspicuously mimic the maneuvering and noise signature of the parent sub. The purpose is to draw an enemy's attention away from the parent sub, allowing the parent sub to sneak away from the battle area undetected, or to escape enemy torpedoes because those torpedoes will be lured toward the decoy. A decoy contains a propulsion system and fuel supply like a regular torpedo. But the decoy is unarmed, and the space available because there is no explosive warhead is used instead for additional computers and sonar emitters. This gives the decoy the ability to be programmed -- before launching -- with complex instructions regarding how to behave regarding changes in depth, course, speed, etc., and also to give off appropriate noises like a real full-sized submarine. The decoy might be programmed to act like a different class of sub than the parent, to further confuse and distract the enemy. For instance, a Royal Australian Navy submarine near Chinese waters might launch a decoy programmed to sound and behave like a Russian Akula. The term "brilliant" refers to an advanced state of on-board artificial intelligence routines that allows the decoy to make autonomous real-time decisions once launched that further aid the tactical goals of its parent sub during combat or intelligence-gathering missions. (Although the primary concept of a decoy is defensive, i.e. enhancing escape-and-evasion by the parent sub, decoys can also be used offensively. They can trick an enemy sub or ship into an ambush, in which the parent sub then fires a live torpedo at the enemy from an unexpected location as a surprise attack.)

 

[Yorkie]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

In an operational scenario the attacking SSN would use an off axis torpedo attack to where the torpedo swam out from the sub and via its wire guidance conducted the attack at long range. With the SSN long gone from the datum of the attack and having deployed smart decoys that mimic its signature the responding forces stand a good chance of attacking a patch of empty ocean while the SSN made good its escape.

***If the attacking sub did that, it just cut the guidance wire from the move and surely would miss the target attacking from long distance! With limited weapons stored, that would not be a wise move to waste any, not to mention it annouced own presence equally, killing your foe or not. BTW, all U.S. subs have canted torpedo tubes to clear the large bow sonar, so the always shoot off axis.

Another tactic would be for the SSN to have pre-surveyed the battle area sea floor and after launching the attack head to an undersea wreck and lay low near this wreck while launching a decoy that mimicked its signature in all respects and having this decoy travel at high speed in the opposite direction from the SSN. When the responding forces chasing the decoy were far enough away the SSN, would move off quietly and escape.

***That tactic might work for an SSK, but SSN?! Sure it too has battery, but the nuclear reactor still needs cooling even if shut down, not to mention no one with a sane mind would do that at the bottom of a sea bed.

My point is that advanced SSN's like the SeaWolf and Virginia class submarines offer many options to use clever tactics to conduct attacks and live to fight another day. Years of facing the Russians has honed these crews to a fine edge

***No doubt if in deep water. But the author was talking about operating in shallow water within the first island chain. The Sea Wolf was definitely not designed to do that. My point is quite simple: the risk in that environment of being hunted down is quite high, even if a fisrt kill is scored. So any target of opportunity had better be worthwhile, because what followed could be much less certain and not so much in the attacker's favor, once its presence and rough location is announced.

Brilliant Decoy:

***This gadget existed a long time ago. I believe Tom Clancy even described in in one of his books in the early 90's.

 

[NikeX]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

***If the attacking sub did that, it just cut the guidance wire from the move and surely would miss the target attacking from long distance! With limited weapons stored, that would not be a wise move to waste any, not to mention it annouced own presence equally, killing your foe or not. BTW, all U.S. subs have canted torpedo tubes to clear the large bow sonar, so the always shoot off axis.

Why cut the wires? Modern torpedoes are designed to approach the target from a bearing that foils the Russian tactic of firing a torpedo back down the bearing of where they think the torpedo came from. An 'off axis' attack means you launch the torpedo from a bearing that is perhaps at right angles to the target. During the swim out phase of the torpedo run the weapon using guidance from the submarine runs in a direction that doesn't lead back to the controlling submarine

Another tactic would be for the SSN to have pre-surveyed the battle area sea floor and after launching the attack head to an undersea wreck and lay low near this wreck while launching a decoy that mimicked its signature in all respects and having this decoy travel at high speed in the opposite direction from the SSN. When the responding forces chasing the decoy were far enough away the SSN, would move off quietly and escape.

***That tactic might work for an SSK, but SSN?! Sure it too has battery, but the nuclear reactor still needs cooling even if shut down, not to mention no one with a sane mind would do that at the bottom of a sea bed.

Are you aware of the S8G Natural Circulation Reactor is cooled without using pumps? Here are the details

"..The S8G had primary coolant pumps, but they were only needed for very high speeds. And since the reactor core was designed with very smooth paths for the coolant, the coolant pumps were smaller and quieter than the ones used by the competing S5W core. They were also fewer in number. In most cases the submarine could be operated without using coolant pumps at all...."

Waiting quietly on the bottom is no problem for submarines using this reactor powerplant

My point is that advanced SSN's like the SeaWolf and Virginia class submarines offer many options to use clever tactics to conduct attacks and live to fight another day. Years of facing the Russians has honed these crews to a fine edge

***No doubt if in deep water. But the author was talking about operating in shallow water within the first island chain. The Sea Wolf was definitely not designed to do that. My point is quite simple: the risk in that environment of being hunted down is quite high, even if a fisrt kill is scored. So any target of opportunity had better be worthwhile, because what followed could be much less certain and not so much in the attacker's favor, once its presence and rough location is announced.

How are you going to hunt it? Please describe the method. Passive isn't going to work and if you go active you alert all the subs for miles around to your presence. And remember the Seawolf and Virginia crawl about in shallow waters all day as they deploy SEALS and other special forces. In fact the Jimmy Carter SSN-23 is specially designed for littorial waters in its missions

"... the Carter is also equipped with additional low speed and station keeping maneuvering modules, devices which make it well suited to the same stationary, sea-bottom deployment and recovery operations that were once conducted by the modified Sturgeon class submarine USS Parche (SSN 683.)

What I am saying is that these subs are not going to run up on the beach but will lurk in waters where you would not expect them

Brilliant Decoy:

***This gadget existed a long time ago. I believe Tom Clancy even described in in one of his books in the early 90's.

How are these Chinese subs going to cope with these decoys is my question. How would you answer that?

 

[Yorkie]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Why cut the wires? Modern torpedoes are designed to approach the target from a bearing that foils the Russian tactic of firing a torpedo back down the bearing of where they think the torpedo came from. An 'off axis' attack means you launch the torpedo from a bearing that is perhaps at right angles to the target. During the swim out phase of the torpedo run the weapon using guidance from the submarine runs in a direction that doesn't lead back to the controlling submarine

**I said the post launch maneuver as you suggested would cut the wire, because the guidance wire is very thin and fragile. Anyway what you described above sounded like a perfect tactic in a computer game. Simple geometry can position a sub away from the threat axis you mentioned when its torpedos go active: just draw yourself a "Z" and extend the ends with dotted lines. Those ends represent the two ships position relative to each other, and in future time.

Are you aware of the S8G Natural Circulation Reactor is cooled without using pumps? Here are the details

**firstly, S8G is only used on the Ohio class, please look it up before posting. Secondly, there are more pumps than just the coolant pumps, because sea water doesn't just move on its own. That's the nature between SSN and SSK.





How are you going to hunt it? Please describe the method. Passive isn't going to work and if you go active you alert all the subs for miles around to your presence. And remember the Seawolf and Virginia crawl about in shallow waters all day as they deploy SEALS and other special forces. In fact the Jimmy Carter SSN-23 is specially designed for littorial waters in its missions

"... the Carter is also equipped with additional low speed and station keeping maneuvering modules, devices which make it well suited to the same stationary, sea-bottom deployment and recovery operations that were once conducted by the modified Sturgeon class submarine USS Parche (SSN 683.)

What I am saying is that these subs are not going to run up on the beach but will lurk in waters where you would not expect them



How are these Chinese subs going to cope with these decoys is my question. How would you answer that?

**My honest answer is I dunno since i have no idea how they deploy ASW assets. But from the ships and aircrafts they have, they ought to be able to flood an area with sonobouy's and coordinate that with nearby sonar equipped ships. Modern sonobouys are combo passive/active, and so are helo borne dipping sonars. Of course they should ping the hell out of wherever a contact is suspected.

the decoy may fool the search party a little, but not for long. The ping returns will be too small to the trained ears.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Why cut the wires? Modern torpedoes are designed to approach the target from a bearing that foils the Russian tactic of firing a torpedo back down the bearing of where they think the torpedo came from. An 'off axis' attack means you launch the torpedo from a bearing that is perhaps at right angles to the target. During the swim out phase of the torpedo run the weapon using guidance from the submarine runs in a direction that doesn't lead back to the controlling submarine

Well if you don't cut the wires, wont the wires eventually point back to the attacking sub regardless of whether the torpedo attacks from off bearing or not? As the torpedo turns to attack, it is going to drag the wires with it so that they will at least trail back to the general direction of the attacking sub.

 

[no_name]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Yeah but how are you going to track the wires under the water. Plus the wire is cut when the torpedo hits it's target or when it is clear that the torpedo is going to be wasted.

 

[Yorkie]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Wires are cut as soon as torpedos acquire target and start homing in, because at that point there is no more need for guidance. With the wire attached the outer door cannot close, therefore a new round cannot be loaded.

 

[NikeX]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

**My honest answer is I dunno since i have no idea how they deploy ASW assets. But from the ships and aircrafts they have, they ought to be able to flood an area with sonobouy's and coordinate that with nearby sonar equipped ships. Modern sonobouys are combo passive/active, and so are helo borne dipping sonars. Of course they should ping the hell out of wherever a contact is suspected.

the decoy may fool the search party a little, but not for long. The ping returns will be too small to the trained ears.

Well to overcome the "smallness" factor the decoy could record the ping and broadcast it back amplified, thereby fooling the receiver as to how large the target is.

My only point has been to attempt in a small way to provide detail as to how an advanced submarine might fight in littorial waters.

 

[escobar]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II