PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

You mean DF-31A; there is no DF-41. Regardless, UK and Pakistan are two entirely different beasts. UK could easily develop a Trident-like missile/warhead if it wanted to. Pakistan will not be able to develop a DF-31A-type missile for decades. Pakistan is also an unstable government constantly in danger of being overrun by extremists as well as sharing its bed with the US, no less. Does UK share its bed with Russia or China? The whole point is, if a country can easily develop the tech, there is no point in not selling them your tech, for profit. This has been Russia's entire economic model for arms sales to China. On the other hand, your highest-tech stuff isn't likely to be sold to your friends, no matter how good they are. Even with Russia's T-50, you can bet it's going to treat India like the US is treating its F-35 partners: "just give me the money. And don't ask for the source code". Bottom line, I would be utterly shocked if China and Pakistan are co-developing a new type 095 SSN. China certainly doesn't need the cash, and also isn't likely to want to give away the secrets of its top of the line nuke sub to a country who could potentially sell it to the US.


What has this got to do with submarines?

And luckily no one in Chinese goverment with influence thinks like you infact no one even in the high ranking Chinese military has this mentality which is why we have the close cooperation that we do
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

What work has Pakistan done in J-10B project? And there is no Shaheen missile with 7000km range. All sources tell me that Ra'ad has a range of under 400km at this moment, and that's a quite far away from 2500km.
LOL, it sounds like we have somebody who's butthurt about Pakistan's lack of, um, range. Shaheen III: speculated to be in development. Speculated to have a target range of 4,500km. Now on SDF with improved range of "7,000"km! Almost every other range quote seems to be hyperinflated as well. As a comparison, China's DF-4 with range of 5,500km was deployed in 1976. Its 8,000km range DF-31 was deployed in the mid-2000's. That's about 30 years from a liquid-fueled IRBM to a solid-fueled ICBM. Pakistan can do better? Let's see it.

JF-17 "cooperation" between China and Pakistan is like India's "cooperation" with Russia on the PAK-FA. That is to say, not much "cooperation" at all. F-22P, same thing. Azmat FAC, same thing. Qing SSK, same thing. ZDK-03, same thing. J-10B, same thing. In pretty much every one of these examples, the "cooperation" is essentially that between a seller and a buyer. And the list goes on.....

What about any of this suggests to me China would sell the "095" to Pakistan, to speak nothing of codevelopment? Nothing. Though I'm sure we'll at some point be hearing rumors going through PAF fan sites that the J-20 will soon be offered up for sale at friendship prices.

What has this got to do with submarines?

And luckily no one in Chinese goverment with influence thinks like you infact no one even in the high ranking Chinese military has this mentality which is why we have the close cooperation that we do
I'm pretty sure you don't speak for anyone in China, to say nothing of the Chinese government. Just sayin
 
Last edited:

stardave

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

You mean DF-31A; there is no DF-41. Regardless, UK and Pakistan are two entirely different beasts. UK could easily develop a Trident-like missile/warhead if it wanted to. Pakistan will not be able to develop a DF-31A-type missile for decades. Pakistan is also an unstable government constantly in danger of being overrun by extremists as well as sharing its bed with the US, no less. Does UK share its bed with Russia or China? The whole point is, if a country can easily develop the tech, there is no point in not selling them your tech, for profit. This has been Russia's entire economic model for arms sales to China. On the other hand, your highest-tech stuff isn't likely to be sold to your friends, no matter how good they are. Even with Russia's T-50, you can bet it's going to treat India like the US is treating its F-35 partners: "just give me the money. And don't ask for the source code". Bottom line, I would be utterly shocked if China and Pakistan are co-developing a new type 095 SSN. China certainly doesn't need the cash, and also isn't likely to want to give away the secrets of its top of the line nuke sub to a country who could potentially sell it to the US.

I highly doubt UK can develop Trident like missile on their own, this is not something you can just pore money into today and receive result tomorrow, ICBM are cutting edge technology that require generations of scientist and researches to put together, don't believe me? go research South Korea space program, they are still at the rocket technology of China in the early 1970s, and they are just well off as UK economically wise. Not to mention the ones with the ability of Trident II, 11,300KM range, 12 MIRV warheads. Not even Russia and China have something close to that ability even today. And no way in hell UK can develop that on their own from nothing.

You can argue that UK and US are very close, share common interest etc... so they can share strategic weapons, that is your opinion, what I am trying to say is, no matter how close two country are, they are still two different entity, and that means they will still have different interests especially when you are two different continents. As world changes, your common interest may very well change as well, just because you are as close to each other like brothers today, does not mean you will always be like this tomorrow. Therefore I think is a bad idea to share your top of the line STRATEGIC nuclear weapon with each other.

And no, this is a different concept with F-35, T-50 etc... those are not strategic weapons, they are just normal weapons that can sell for a profit, so they are not a threat that can backfire on your like the Trident II ICBM that you sell to your "friend" today, whom have the ability to use it against you and wipe you out in 30 minutes or less from their home turf tomorrow. And no, when US developed Trident missiles, there was no UK involvement. I have no problem with China selling Pakistan J-10 or J-20, but if China decide to sell them nuclear weapons, that will be a very big mistake. (no offense to Pakistan members here)
 

timepass

Brigadier
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I highly doubt UK can develop Trident like missile on their own, this is not something you can just pore money into today and receive result tomorrow, ICBM are cutting edge technology that require generations of scientist and researches to put together, don't believe me? go research South Korea space program, they are still at the rocket technology of China in the early 1970s, and they are just well off as UK economically wise. Not to mention the ones with the ability of Trident II, 11,300KM range, 12 MIRV warheads. Not even Russia and China have something close to that ability even today. And no way in hell UK can develop that on their own from nothing.

You can argue that UK and US are very close, share common interest etc... so they can share strategic weapons, that is your opinion, what I am trying to say is, no matter how close two country are, they are still two different entity, and that means they will still have different interests especially when you are two different continents. As world changes, your common interest may very well change as well, just because you are as close to each other like brothers today, does not mean you will always be like this tomorrow. Therefore I think is a bad idea to share your top of the line STRATEGIC nuclear weapon with each other.

And no, this is a different concept with F-35, T-50 etc... those are not strategic weapons, they are just normal weapons that can sell for a profit, so they are not a threat that can backfire on your like the Trident II ICBM that you sell to your "friend" today, whom have the ability to use it against you and wipe you out in 30 minutes or less from their home turf tomorrow. And no, when US developed Trident missiles, there was no UK involvement. I have no problem with China selling Pakistan J-10 or J-20, but if China decide to sell them nuclear weapons, that will be a very big mistake. (no offense to Pakistan members here)


Pakistan don't need nuclear weapon from China or any other country, as they have weapons plus very capable delivery systems. Moreover, with no offence how could you justify Nuclear weapons with country & with other not. Why discremination... & for your info only single country have used nuclear weapons till now & it's US.

---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

LOL, it sounds like we have somebody who's butthurt about Pakistan's lack of, um, range. Shaheen III: speculated to be in development. Speculated to have a target range of 4,500km. Now on SDF with improved range of "7,000"km! Almost every other range quote seems to be hyperinflated as well. As a comparison, China's DF-4 with range of 5,500km was deployed in 1976. Its 8,000km range DF-31 was deployed in the mid-2000's. That's about 30 years from a liquid-fueled IRBM to a solid-fueled ICBM. Pakistan can do better? Let's see it.

JF-17 "cooperation" between China and Pakistan is like India's "cooperation" with Russia on the PAK-FA. That is to say, not much "cooperation" at all. F-22P, same thing. Azmat FAC, same thing. Qing SSK, same thing. ZDK-03, same thing. J-10B, same thing. In pretty much every one of these examples, the "cooperation" is essentially that between a seller and a buyer. And the list goes on.....

What about any of this suggests to me China would sell the "095" to Pakistan, to speak nothing of codevelopment? Nothing. Though I'm sure we'll at some point be hearing rumors going through PAF fan sites that the J-20 will soon be offered up for sale at friendship prices.


I'm pretty sure you don't speak for anyone in China, to say nothing of the Chinese government. Just sayin

I beleive people here couldn't digest that how could China open all the doors for their Pakistani friends unconditional.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

There is a big difference between UK and USA and China and Pakistan, the sheer fact people are comparing the two shows how much they know about the 4 nations at hand

When UK entered war in 1956 against Egypt, Americans told British you never go to war again without Americans permission, when WWII ended Ameircans demanded Diego Garcia not that UK wanted it anyway, very famously Americans said during 1982 Falklands war why is UK fighting for a rock in the oceans?? They don't back UK the list is endless

In 1962 China asked Pakistan to open a second front against India, only our stupid leaders got confused and said we wait and in 1965 we had fight india anyway even then China supported

In 2002 standoff China sent M11 missiles, 40x F7 PG fighters and ammunition cargo ships docked at Karachi port weeks afterwards, did you know that China even said they will mobilise entire field army on the Indian eastern border to split the Indian defences in two And Pakistan and China established a hot line giving 24 hours a day update on war developments during 1999 Kargil and 2002, this was at the very height of Pakistan and Chinese military commanders

Pakistan even gave part of Kashmir entrance to China

Anyone who has a open mind knows the truth because i just said it, if Pakistan wants a SSN they will get one from China full stop the rest is just baseless opinions
 
Last edited:

stardave

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

There is a big difference between UK and USA and China and Pakistan, the sheer fact people are comparing the two shows how much they know about the 4 nations at hand

When UK entered war in 1956 against Egypt, Americans told British you never go to war again without Americans permission, when WWII ended Ameircans demanded Diego Garcia not that UK wanted it anyway, very famously Americans said during 1982 Falklands war why is UK fighting for a rock in the oceans?? They don't back UK the list is endless

In 1962 China asked Pakistan to open a second front against India, only our stupid leaders got confused and said we wait and in 1965 we had fight india anyway even then China supported

In 2002 standoff China sent M11 missiles, 40x F7 PG fighters and ammunition cargo ships docked at Karachi port weeks afterwards, did you know that China even said they will mobilise entire field army on the Indian eastern border to split the Indian defences in two And Pakistan and China established a hot line giving 24 hours a day update on war developments during 1999 Kargil and 2002, this was at the very height of Pakistan and Chinese military commanders

Pakistan even gave part of Kashmir entrance to China

Anyone who has a open mind knows the truth because i just said it, if Pakistan wants a SSN they will get one from China full stop the rest is just baseless opinions

While I have no doubt relationship between China and Pakistan is strong, but one must remember this is not because of culture similarity and common values, it has more to do with both of them have an common adversary aka India. Because without India, I don't think China and Pakistan will be that close, after all Pakistan is predominantly a Muslim nation, while China is a Confucius/Atheist nation. And if you think about it, there is really not that much cultural exchange between the two nations.

The problem with friendship base build up a mutual enemy is that, once that enemy is not longer an enemy, there is very little left that holds the alliance between 2 nations, if they are not culturally connected.
 
Last edited:

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

No cultural exchange?? for your information the people from this region have been trading with each other since before the silk route

Names and places in this article are translated from Chinese version and accuracy is not guaranteed.

Two ordinary Pakistanis have become famous in Pakistan.

For 27 years they companied the brave souls of 88 Chinese in the Chinese cemetery in Gilgit northern Pakistan. 2nd Aug, they arrived in Beijing at the invitation of China's ministry of foreign affairs. Before their departure for Beijing, they were accompanied by their relatives to Islamabad for a special program by Pakistan TV station. News reporter met them in Huafeng hotel Bejing 4th Aug.

Mr. Ali Madad 65 and Mr. Ali Ahamad 48 who never left the cemetery for 27 years looked most ordinary. For this interview, they put on their national costumes. Mr. Madad who has lost his hearing in one ear and can only speak Gilgit sat still during the interview. Mr. Ahamad can speak Urdu and a little English was responsible for answering all the questions.

The cemetery was devoted to Chinese who died in building the Kalakunlun highway. This highway is called China-Pakistan Friendship road and was built in accordance with agreement between the two nations. It runs through Pamir plateau, the roof of the world. It stretchs 1200 kilometers, the project was started in 1966 and finished 12 years later. Due to the difficult terrain and weather, frequent avalanche, landslide, mudslide, more than 100 Chinese engineers and workers devoted their lives their. Apart from few bodies which were sent back to China, most of them are sleeping on Pakistani soil.

1977, before the completion of construction Mr. Madad and Mr. Ahamad, who took part in buring the Chinese submited their applications to be volunteer guardians of the cemetery and their applications were quickly aproved. In Jul 1978, the cemetery was established on Pakistani soil, in the center, a white monument was erected on which engraved : "The graves of Chinese who devoted their lives in building the Pakistan highway". Mr. Ahamad told the news reporter that their homes are close to the cemetery, since then, they visit the cemetery almost every day and they never left it for 27 years.

Every tomb stone is circled by flowers




When talking about the cemetery, Mr. Ahamad got excited. He said that, except 88 tomb stones, there are more than 800 trees, every tomb stone is circled by flowers. All of this is done by him and Mr. Madad. Mr. Madad is in charge of the gate and cleaning, he is responsible for trees and flowers. Mr. Ahamad said proudly the many people think the work requires atleast 5 people but is done by them two.     

   They regard it as a supreme honur

Many people come here to commerate, including Chinese delegations, Chinese travelers and local Pakistanis.
Last year is the 25th anniversary of the opening of this road, Mr. Wang yi, the vice minister of China's foreing affairs visited the cemetery and the two gardians.

Ahamad told the reporter, Pakistanis know, some Chinese gave up their lives to build the road, and they are proud to attend to these brave men. When asked what is their wish, they said, they hope the tomb stone be repaired, for some of the names on the stones are difficult to recognize. Their duty is to keep the cemetery more clean and beautiful to give martyrs relatives consolation.

Ahamad said, they both receive 360 Rupee (about 50 Yuan) from the government, this is not salary, it is subsidy, they live on crops in their fields. When asked how long he will continue, Ahamad said, until I can't work, then I wish my son can take my place.

In 1997, when Hongkong returned to China, Mr. Madad and Mr. Ahamad were invited to Kashgar. This was their first time to bejing. When talking about his impression of Beijing, Ahamad said with exageration: Seeing Beijing is like seeing the stars in the sky, this city is monderful
 
Last edited:

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

While I have no doubt relationship between China and Pakistan is strong, but one must remember this is not because of culture similarity and common values, it has more to do with both of them have an common adversary aka India. Because without India, I don't think China and Pakistan will be that close, after all Pakistan is predominantly a Muslim nation, while China is a Confucius/Atheist nation. And if you think about it, there is really not that much cultural exchange between the two nations.

The problem with friendship base build up a mutual enemy is that, once that enemy is not longer an enemy, there is very little left that holds the alliance between 2 nations, if they are not culturally connected.

It may have started out because there is a common adversary. But the relationship has out grown its orgins.

the "special feeling" average Chinese have for the nation of Pakistan is generally one of deep friendship.

the average Chinese in general think international relations in terms of personal relations.
I would describe the feeling as knowing a person who has stuck with you during the worst of times; didn't look down on you even if you were down and poor. "Yi" or "Yiqi" is the Chinese word to describe that.

so on that level the relationship has taken its roots. it is truly unique. the average chinese certainly don;t think about Japan or SK this way even though the cultures are much more similar.

I think in future it would be important for china that Pakistan to get out of the mess it is in right now and thoroughly modernize in its own way. make your friends stronger would make you stronger.

btw, i think pakistan is also china's door and partner into the Muslim/ middle eastern world. so even outside of context of sub-continental conflict there is a close aligned interest there.

---------- Post added at 06:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 PM ----------

In 1962 China asked Pakistan to open a second front against India, only our stupid leaders got confused and said we wait and in 1965 we had fight india anyway even then China supported

In 2002 standoff China sent M11 missiles, 40x F7 PG fighters and ammunition cargo ships docked at Karachi port weeks afterwards, did you know that China even said they will mobilise entire field army on the Indian eastern border to split the Indian defences in two And Pakistan and China established a hot line giving 24 hours a day update on war developments during 1999 Kargil and 2002, this was at the very height of Pakistan and Chinese military commanders

Pakistan even gave part of Kashmir entrance to China

Anyone who has a open mind knows the truth because i just said it, if Pakistan wants a SSN they will get one from China full stop the rest is just baseless opinions

I heard during Kargil Chinese radar stations were basically passing on early warning tracks on their common neighbor's activities to Pakistan. I dont know it is true or not. no way to fully confirm. but I would not be surprised that if something like that is true.

as for SSN I don;t think china would hand one over. operate one would prob bankrupt Pakistani military budget. that being said china had no compunction provide them with techs to tinker around on their own. provided it is done so discretely.

the average Chinese right now is concerned that pakistan is stabilizing and economically could stand on its own. because they are painfully aware because of their history that with out a stronger economy no amount of military hardware can prop up a state.


as for comparing JF-17 cooperation and Indo-Russian PAK-FA.
on the face the arrangement is similar may be, but on a deeper inspection....
I don;t see that on the other project the south-asian party give their northern friend requirements at very early stages of design rquirements and objectives (DR&O). for example, the design called for structural and sub assembly and component levels designed such that they are tailored to the manufacturing technology levels of their south asian partners (i.e. nothing super fancy, all aluminum, not requiring advance metallurgy and machined parts such as a big single peice bulkheads etc) , even if that means some limited sacrifice in performance/weight. plus some nice financing and tons of engineering support to set up a assembly line.
on the other hand...
Sukhoi designed to whatever requirement it got from Russian military. their south asian partner paid hard currency for access to technology. that was it.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

By the same logic, China should sell DF-41 to Pakistan as well, since they already have nuclear weapons.

And no, whatever British had, it was not nearly as good as Trident II, 11,300km range, 12 MIRV.

To my opinion, a country should NEVER give another country strategic weapons like this, no matter how close you are.

For sure the American implant something into it, something like secret code, so the Trident II won't be able to target the USA and surely if the USA says "NO", the British won't be able to fire them
 

escobar

Brigadier
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

:)

UqDIQ.jpg
 
Top