PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

well it doesnt mean the first SSK is going straight to PN, it only shows that PN is interested in aquiring Chinese Submarine, dont read too much in the detail, U214 is now off the agenda for PN,after all the talk and years it was very deeply considered and tested by PN for purchase but they decided to go against it, also Scorpeane is off because India is already getting it so PN must really be interested in a Chinese sub and it must match the performance of the German and French otherwise PN wouldnt drop both

as for NPT, M11 missiles are not allowed for export but China delivered them, enrichment centrifudges are not allowed under IAEA but China supplied them to Pakistan, CJ-10K LACM would just need a Pakistani paint job problem solved

China has to start pretending that it respects international treaties at certain point and exporting any kind of missiles that violate MTCR rules would get them into a lot of trouble.

as for senstive technology, China has always matched Western technology, China sold its only foreign sale of advanced AWACS to PAF, Shaanxi ZDK-03 , PAF was so pleased with its performance they cut the Swedish Erieye order from 8 to 4

Pakistan has made sure no Americans come close to JF17 thats why its based out in Peshawar and they are going to get SD10 BVR with it, there is no concern for senstive technology ending up in wrong hands

look, there are many reasons to be super skeptical about this source. A huge portion of Chinese bbs community still thinks that this new boat is a SLBM test vessel, so only one will ever be built. Now even if it is not, they are incorporating so much new changes to this that it could easily have problems and not be a product that PN would want. There is nothing that China has ever exported to Pakistan in the recent years that would carry as much technological risk as this submarine. If it does go into serial production, it will be at least another 3 or 4 years before they sort out all of the problems in a design like this. Think how long it took to go from first prototype to mass production for 039 and then 039A. I don't understand why any rational thinking person in PN would put an order for it at this point. I understand why some fanboys that love to talk about new technologies would salivate at the potential of it, but you could very well be dreaming about a white elephant here.

In the mean time, I read what the people posted on this. There is no such thing as 041 in PLAN. The first 4 "Yuans" are classified as 039A within PLAN and the next few are classified as 039B. And then, I read people call this the "Qing" class or the "043" class? Those are all fanboy designations. There is not a single legitimate Chinese source that has given a real designation to this boat.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

On a totally different note, we see two 093s from the Sanya naval base. The same set of photos also showed 171 beside it.

 

[asif iqbal]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

China has to start pretending that it respects international treaties at certain point and exporting any kind of missiles that violate MTCR rules would get them into a lot of trouble.

look, there are many reasons to be super skeptical about this source. A huge portion of Chinese bbs community still thinks that this new boat is a SLBM test vessel, so only one will ever be built. Now even if it is not, they are incorporating so much new changes to this that it could easily have problems and not be a product that PN would want. There is nothing that China has ever exported to Pakistan in the recent years that would carry as much technological risk as this submarine. If it does go into serial production, it will be at least another 3 or 4 years before they sort out all of the problems in a design like this. Think how long it took to go from first prototype to mass production for 039 and then 039A. I don't understand why any rational thinking person in PN would put an order for it at this point. I understand why some fanboys that love to talk about new technologies would salivate at the potential of it, but you could very well be dreaming about a white elephant here.

In the mean time, I read what the people posted on this. There is no such thing as 041 in PLAN. The first 4 "Yuans" are classified as 039A within PLAN and the next few are classified as 039B. And then, I read people call this the "Qing" class or the "043" class? Those are all fanboy designations. There is not a single legitimate Chinese source that has given a real designation to this boat.

well i am sure PN and PLAN know better, if they have entered into talks there must be something

we can speculate alot but it wont bring us closer to what PN will be getting but few things are known for sure

back in mid-2009 U214 deal with Germany was pretty much a done deal, 90% of the deal had been finalised and delivery times had been agreed, Turkey was also on board, then all of a sudden PN dropped the order and shifted to visits at China shipbuilders

whatever the new Chinese submarine is it has attracted the attention of PN who has extensive submarine experience and knowledge, with regards to which exact submarine PN will get it could be a specificaly designed and equipped submarine made for requirments of PN which will borrow technology from existing/under development Chinese submarines which includes Type 041

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

well i am sure PN and PLAN know better, if they have entered into talks there must be something

we can speculate alot but it wont bring us closer to what PN will be getting but few things are known for sure

back in mid-2009 U214 deal with Germany was pretty much a done deal, 90% of the deal had been finalised and delivery times had been agreed, Turkey was also on board, then all of a sudden PN dropped the order and shifted to visits at China shipbuilders

whatever the new Chinese submarine is it has attracted the attention of PN who has extensive submarine experience and knowledge, with regards to which exact submarine PN will get it could be a specificaly designed and equipped submarine made for requirments of PN which will borrow technology from existing/under development Chinese submarines which includes Type 041

As if Pakistan has ton of money to spend Let be realistic so far China grant Pakistan all the new toy . I don't believe a single minute that this "wet dream" will be realized!

Pakistan is close to bankrupt. she better use the limited fund to better the life of her people

 

[nosh]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

China has to start pretending that it respects international treaties at certain point and exporting any kind of missiles that violate MTCR rules would get them into a lot of trouble.

Well, I don't remember seeing Unite States got into any trouble selling JASSM to Australia, South Korea and Netherlands, not to mention selling Tomahawks and Trident to UK.

 

[Red___Sword]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

As if Pakistan has ton of money to spend Let be realistic so far China grant Pakistan all the new toy . I don't believe a single minute that this "wet dream" will be realized!

Pakistan is close to bankrupt. she better use the limited fund to better the life of her people

Easy easy...

Let's just say, we rationally believe that there is no such urgency for PN to actually bought over such new (too new) subs.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

well i am sure PN and PLAN know better, if they have entered into talks there must be something

we can speculate alot but it wont bring us closer to what PN will be getting but few things are known for sure

back in mid-2009 U214 deal with Germany was pretty much a done deal, 90% of the deal had been finalised and delivery times had been agreed, Turkey was also on board, then all of a sudden PN dropped the order and shifted to visits at China shipbuilders

whatever the new Chinese submarine is it has attracted the attention of PN who has extensive submarine experience and knowledge, with regards to which exact submarine PN will get it could be a specificaly designed and equipped submarine made for requirments of PN which will borrow technology from existing/under development Chinese submarines which includes Type 041

I have no question that the submarine PN will get will not be exactly the same as the one PLAN as. btw, there is no such thing as 041. If you are referring to Yuan, it's either 039A for the first 4 or 039B for the ones afterward

Well, I don't remember seeing Unite States got into any trouble selling JASSM to Australia, South Korea and Netherlands, not to mention selling Tomahawks and Trident to UK.

that has never stopped US from trying to put pressure on other country's weapon transfer before, lol.

Why do you think all of China's exported cruise missiles are under 300 km in range?

 

[nosh]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

that has never stopped US from trying to put pressure on other country's weapon transfer before, lol.

I think the pressure has actually been exaggerated by AP, Reuter, BBC, CNN, NYT et al screaming their eyeballs out every time a non-US-friendly country gets any missiles.

Why do you think all of China's exported cruise missiles are under 300 km in range?

I think pakistan will get whatever missiles it needs.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I have no question that the submarine PN will get will not be exactly the same as the one PLAN as. btw, there is no such thing as 041. If you are referring to Yuan, it's either 039A for the first 4 or 039B for the ones afterward

that has never stopped US from trying to put pressure on other country's weapon transfer before, lol.

Why do you think all of China's exported cruise missiles are under 300 km in range?

That is not because of US pressure rather commitment by China to abide by MTRC agreement of 1992

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Possibly in light of this experience, the MTCR membership has not invited China to join the regime. Although China gave a commitment in 1992 that it would abide by the MTCR guidelines, Beijing has subsequently refused to adhere to the updated 1993 guidelines, making the MTCR reluctant to admit a member likely to be even more recalcitrant than Russia . Thus, MTCR enlargement appears to have not only eroded the entry standards but also made consensus on sensitive issues increasingly difficult.


anyway it is voluntary agreement

Indeed, as the MTCR is a voluntary arrangement, it does not have the ability to sanction member states that violate its guidelines. The regime, considered as a cartel by many observers, has fared even worse in its unenviable task of convincing nonmembers to adhere to its guidelines and has struggled to gain legitimacy outside of its membership

 

[plawolf]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Well the MTCR can be easily circumvented if so desired.

China sells Pakistan thousand mile cruise missiles but only fitted with fuel tanks to give it 300km range, and hence comply with the treaty requirements.

Pakistan remove small fuel tank and put in full sized fuel tank and no-one will be any the wiser.

If Pakistan has a need to announce the increased range for whatever reason, well, they can quite accurately claim that they modified and improved the Chinese supplied missiles to give them greater range. The west would have to believe that since they insist Chinese weapons are all rubbish.