PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Jeff Head · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
this is semi official acknowledgement that China is considering building a carrier

Read that very carefully and tell me exactly what specifics it gives.

Semi-official consideration is not anything specific or firm whatsoever.

Look, most of us here believe that the PLAN is going to launch the Varyag. They have put too much study, too much time, too much money, and too much work into her and over the last few years she has made steady progress.

Most also believe that after training and learning with her that the PLAN will then build its own indeginous carriers within the next 6-8 years...probably two of them.

I believe we are really saying pretty much the same thing in principle regarding these points.

But, a PLAN, nuclear, 93,000 ton aircraft carrier, it if materializes, is something most of us believe could only come after all of that occurs. Several of the people you have been dialoging with on this thread have years of experience with aircraft carriers...both practical experience at sea sailing and maintaining them and engineering/design experience.

Hendrik_2000 · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Look, most of us here believe that the PLAN is going to launch the Varyag. They have put too much study, too much time, too much money, and too much work into her and over the last few years she has made steady progress.

Most also believe that after training and learning with her that the PLAN will then build its own indeginous carriers within the next 6-8 years...probably two of them.

I believe we are really saying pretty much the same thing in principle regarding these points.

I don't believe Variag is what he meant I think he is talking of building 48000 ton domestic design maybe based on Variag I call it it semi official because the Statement was given in the course of impromptu interview with Hongkong newspaper and he said approval has not been granted by the goverment to build the ships and He also said that all technical hurdles has been overcome

But, a PLAN, nuclear, 93,000 ton aircraft carrier, it if materializes, is something most of us believe could only come after all of that occurs. Several of the people you have been dialoging with on this thread have years of experience with aircraft carriers...both practical experience at sea sailing and maintaining them and engineering/design experience.

Of course he is not saying that they will build it tomorrow he is talking of 2020 time frame So I was surprised why people ridicule they idea that China can build a 93000 ton ship within 20 years from now.

Considering such a progress that they show sofar anything can happened in 20 years and It is from a country that a send man to the space and has it own ballistic missile and the fastest economy in the world. and robust defense industry

So I would say it is within china's technical reach to do it

Hendrik_2000 · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Look, most of us here believe that the PLAN is going to launch the Varyag. They have put too much study, too much time, too much money, and too much work into her and over the last few years she has made steady progress.

Most also believe that after training and learning with her that the PLAN will then build its own indeginous carriers within the next 6-8 years...probably two of them.

I believe we are really saying pretty much the same thing in principle regarding these points.

I don't believe Variag is what he meant I think he is talking of building 48000 ton domestic design maybe based on Variag I call it it semi official because the Statement was given in the course of impromptu interview with Hongkong newspaper and he said approval has not been granted by the goverment to build the ships and He also said that all technical hurdles has been overcome

But, a PLAN, nuclear, 93,000 ton aircraft carrier, it if materializes, is something most of us believe could only come after all of that occurs. Several of the people you have been dialoging with on this thread have years of experience with aircraft carriers...both practical experience at sea sailing and maintaining them and engineering/design experience.

Of course he is not saying that they will build it tomorrow he is talking of 2020 time frame So I was surprised why people ridicule they idea that China can build a 93000 ton ship within 20 years from now.

Considering such a progress that they show sofar anything can happened in 20 years and It is from a country that a send man to the space and has it own ballistic missile and the fastest economy in the world. and robust defense industry

So I would say it is within china's technical reach to do it

Hendrik_2000 · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Look, most of us here believe that the PLAN is going to launch the Varyag. They have put too much study, too much time, too much money, and too much work into her and over the last few years she has made steady progress.

Most also believe that after training and learning with her that the PLAN will then build its own indeginous carriers within the next 6-8 years...probably two of them.

I believe we are really saying pretty much the same thing in principle regarding these points.

I don't believe Variag is what he meant I think he is talking of building 48000 ton domestic design maybe based on Variag I call it it semi official because the Statement was given in the course of impromptu interview with Hongkong newspaper and he said approval has not been granted by the goverment to build the ships and He also said that all technical hurdles has been overcome

But, a PLAN, nuclear, 93,000 ton aircraft carrier, it if materializes, is something most of us believe could only come after all of that occurs. Several of the people you have been dialoging with on this thread have years of experience with aircraft carriers...both practical experience at sea sailing and maintaining them and engineering/design experience.

Of course he is not saying that they will build it tomorrow he is talking of 2020 time frame So I was surprised why people ridicule they idea that China can build a 93000 ton ship within 20 years from now.

Considering such a progress that they show sofar anything can happened in 20 years and It is from a country that a send man to the space and has it own ballistic missile and the fastest economy in the world. and robust defense industry

So I would say it is within china's technical reach to do it

Jeff Head · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
Of course he is not saying that they will build it tomorrow he is talking of 2020 time frame So I was surprised why people ridicule they idea that China can build a 93000 ton ship within 20 years from now.

Considering such a progress that they show sofar anything can happened in 20 years and It is from a country that a send man to the space and has it own ballistic missile and the fastest economy in the world. and robust defense industry

So I would say it is within china's technical reach to do it

Well, 2020 is only 13 years from now, not 20. In 2027, which is twenty years from now a 93,000 ton nuclear carrier is possible for the PLAN IMHO. But as of today, the Varyag is not complete yet. Most of us believe the PLAN, if they do it at all at that point, may start building such a project in the 2020 time frame...but time will tell.

Jeff Head · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
Of course he is not saying that they will build it tomorrow he is talking of 2020 time frame So I was surprised why people ridicule they idea that China can build a 93000 ton ship within 20 years from now.

Considering such a progress that they show sofar anything can happened in 20 years and It is from a country that a send man to the space and has it own ballistic missile and the fastest economy in the world. and robust defense industry

So I would say it is within china's technical reach to do it

Well, 2020 is only 13 years from now, not 20. In 2027, which is twenty years from now a 93,000 ton nuclear carrier is possible for the PLAN IMHO. But as of today, the Varyag is not complete yet. Most of us believe the PLAN, if they do it at all at that point, may start building such a project in the 2020 time frame...but time will tell.

Jeff Head · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
Of course he is not saying that they will build it tomorrow he is talking of 2020 time frame So I was surprised why people ridicule they idea that China can build a 93000 ton ship within 20 years from now.

Considering such a progress that they show sofar anything can happened in 20 years and It is from a country that a send man to the space and has it own ballistic missile and the fastest economy in the world. and robust defense industry

So I would say it is within china's technical reach to do it

Well, 2020 is only 13 years from now, not 20. In 2027, which is twenty years from now a 93,000 ton nuclear carrier is possible for the PLAN IMHO. But as of today, the Varyag is not complete yet. Most of us believe the PLAN, if they do it at all at that point, may start building such a project in the 2020 time frame...but time will tell.

Gollevainen · Mar 31, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
Military strength is invariably reflection of the country industrial base and strength. You can believe me I work in defense industry. Next to our line of military product we have the same line that produce civilian good.We share the same worker the same technology and the same management style

Well exactly...defence industry needs most of all quality and sopistication, not politically appealing pose. Most faults of chinese military producement has come from neglect of inexperience and silly decissions made by believing their own propaganda how 'ideology can replace all levels of practicality and logic', and those, specially made during the Cultural revolution hampers a great deal. You really can start counting the modern chinese military production to take their first steps AFTER the cultural revolution, as all valuable lessons they have learnt from the soviets during the 50's were let to be wasted and run dry...

When you pour so much money in defense related industry you got result. If I'm not wrong Russia spend 50% of the goverment spending on the military when her GDP is only 10% of US. Yes you build all kind of fancy weapon but for how long eventually the reality take over and Russia gone bust because her civilian economy is not competitive.
China case is different.For long time there is no urgency to compete with US on the ideological level There is nothing for China to gain for competing with US on the ideological ground

Yeas thats true, I have never claimed otherwise

I never believe that technology was the constraint in building Carrier but politic and funding does

But my friend, it is the exact opposite. China has all economical capacity to go on for it....but not shipbuilding experience and knowlidge to do so...

China military spending is pegged to 1.5% of GDP or 5% of goverment spending quite modest actually but as the size of Chinese economy grow 1.5% is 45 billion dollar slightly less than France budget Building carrier is expensive because you have take account of support and escort ship to form batttle group. Unless you have urgency you will be hard pressed to justify spending that kind of money when it can be used for other thing

yeas but France have build capital ships since....when they start calling ships capital

Like I said, money and ecomincal issues arent the factor that prevents china to proceed in carrier field by the pace that the Korean article claims.

But I believe that in order to allow the new SBN to operate in China sea She need to be protected from the surface ship. and The fact that now China import 50% of all its oil and raw material from overseas China must be able to protect SLOC

Politic is the other consideration because carrier is an offensive weapon It might unnerve the neighboring country and for long time China follow the dictum of DXP to bide for time and never to antagonize the US But I believe the new leadership is confident enough and feel that there is nothing to gain to please the US as Us is going to contain China anyway and kept selling offensive weapon to Taiwan So what the point of restraining yourself.

There you are rigth, there is all needs of carrier to be included in chinese fleet - it is the essential for any fleet - and I hope that chinese leadership would understand that its most prestige value isent from offensive nature of such ships (for that you need CBG, and those are still far away in the future) but the defensive. The fighter umbrella that protects the fleet against enemy ships and aircraft can now move along with the fleet and allow PLAN to conduct its defensive operations untied to the constrains of shore based air cover.

But my obinions arent my own, but an objective scope on PLANs current shipbuilding capacity and level of experience. How can you expect them to start produce carrier now, as mean time its currently biggest and most sophisticated warships are rumoured to suffer thecnical proplems and have revialed other desing faults (such as under-powering.)?????

Gollevainen · Mar 31, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
Military strength is invariably reflection of the country industrial base and strength. You can believe me I work in defense industry. Next to our line of military product we have the same line that produce civilian good.We share the same worker the same technology and the same management style

Well exactly...defence industry needs most of all quality and sopistication, not politically appealing pose. Most faults of chinese military producement has come from neglect of inexperience and silly decissions made by believing their own propaganda how 'ideology can replace all levels of practicality and logic', and those, specially made during the Cultural revolution hampers a great deal. You really can start counting the modern chinese military production to take their first steps AFTER the cultural revolution, as all valuable lessons they have learnt from the soviets during the 50's were let to be wasted and run dry...

When you pour so much money in defense related industry you got result. If I'm not wrong Russia spend 50% of the goverment spending on the military when her GDP is only 10% of US. Yes you build all kind of fancy weapon but for how long eventually the reality take over and Russia gone bust because her civilian economy is not competitive.
China case is different.For long time there is no urgency to compete with US on the ideological level There is nothing for China to gain for competing with US on the ideological ground

Yeas thats true, I have never claimed otherwise

I never believe that technology was the constraint in building Carrier but politic and funding does

But my friend, it is the exact opposite. China has all economical capacity to go on for it....but not shipbuilding experience and knowlidge to do so...

China military spending is pegged to 1.5% of GDP or 5% of goverment spending quite modest actually but as the size of Chinese economy grow 1.5% is 45 billion dollar slightly less than France budget Building carrier is expensive because you have take account of support and escort ship to form batttle group. Unless you have urgency you will be hard pressed to justify spending that kind of money when it can be used for other thing

yeas but France have build capital ships since....when they start calling ships capital

Like I said, money and ecomincal issues arent the factor that prevents china to proceed in carrier field by the pace that the Korean article claims.

But I believe that in order to allow the new SBN to operate in China sea She need to be protected from the surface ship. and The fact that now China import 50% of all its oil and raw material from overseas China must be able to protect SLOC

Politic is the other consideration because carrier is an offensive weapon It might unnerve the neighboring country and for long time China follow the dictum of DXP to bide for time and never to antagonize the US But I believe the new leadership is confident enough and feel that there is nothing to gain to please the US as Us is going to contain China anyway and kept selling offensive weapon to Taiwan So what the point of restraining yourself.

There you are rigth, there is all needs of carrier to be included in chinese fleet - it is the essential for any fleet - and I hope that chinese leadership would understand that its most prestige value isent from offensive nature of such ships (for that you need CBG, and those are still far away in the future) but the defensive. The fighter umbrella that protects the fleet against enemy ships and aircraft can now move along with the fleet and allow PLAN to conduct its defensive operations untied to the constrains of shore based air cover.

But my obinions arent my own, but an objective scope on PLANs current shipbuilding capacity and level of experience. How can you expect them to start produce carrier now, as mean time its currently biggest and most sophisticated warships are rumoured to suffer thecnical proplems and have revialed other desing faults (such as under-powering.)?????

Gollevainen · Mar 31, 2007

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
Military strength is invariably reflection of the country industrial base and strength. You can believe me I work in defense industry. Next to our line of military product we have the same line that produce civilian good.We share the same worker the same technology and the same management style

Well exactly...defence industry needs most of all quality and sopistication, not politically appealing pose. Most faults of chinese military producement has come from neglect of inexperience and silly decissions made by believing their own propaganda how 'ideology can replace all levels of practicality and logic', and those, specially made during the Cultural revolution hampers a great deal. You really can start counting the modern chinese military production to take their first steps AFTER the cultural revolution, as all valuable lessons they have learnt from the soviets during the 50's were let to be wasted and run dry...

When you pour so much money in defense related industry you got result. If I'm not wrong Russia spend 50% of the goverment spending on the military when her GDP is only 10% of US. Yes you build all kind of fancy weapon but for how long eventually the reality take over and Russia gone bust because her civilian economy is not competitive.
China case is different.For long time there is no urgency to compete with US on the ideological level There is nothing for China to gain for competing with US on the ideological ground

Yeas thats true, I have never claimed otherwise

I never believe that technology was the constraint in building Carrier but politic and funding does

But my friend, it is the exact opposite. China has all economical capacity to go on for it....but not shipbuilding experience and knowlidge to do so...

China military spending is pegged to 1.5% of GDP or 5% of goverment spending quite modest actually but as the size of Chinese economy grow 1.5% is 45 billion dollar slightly less than France budget Building carrier is expensive because you have take account of support and escort ship to form batttle group. Unless you have urgency you will be hard pressed to justify spending that kind of money when it can be used for other thing

yeas but France have build capital ships since....when they start calling ships capital

Like I said, money and ecomincal issues arent the factor that prevents china to proceed in carrier field by the pace that the Korean article claims.

But I believe that in order to allow the new SBN to operate in China sea She need to be protected from the surface ship. and The fact that now China import 50% of all its oil and raw material from overseas China must be able to protect SLOC

Politic is the other consideration because carrier is an offensive weapon It might unnerve the neighboring country and for long time China follow the dictum of DXP to bide for time and never to antagonize the US But I believe the new leadership is confident enough and feel that there is nothing to gain to please the US as Us is going to contain China anyway and kept selling offensive weapon to Taiwan So what the point of restraining yourself.

There you are rigth, there is all needs of carrier to be included in chinese fleet - it is the essential for any fleet - and I hope that chinese leadership would understand that its most prestige value isent from offensive nature of such ships (for that you need CBG, and those are still far away in the future) but the defensive. The fighter umbrella that protects the fleet against enemy ships and aircraft can now move along with the fleet and allow PLAN to conduct its defensive operations untied to the constrains of shore based air cover.

But my obinions arent my own, but an objective scope on PLANs current shipbuilding capacity and level of experience. How can you expect them to start produce carrier now, as mean time its currently biggest and most sophisticated warships are rumoured to suffer thecnical proplems and have revialed other desing faults (such as under-powering.)?????

PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Jeff Head

General

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

Jeff Head

General

Jeff Head

General

Jeff Head

General

Gollevainen

Colonel

Gollevainen

Colonel

Gollevainen

Colonel