PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

And didnt I just say that oil tankers arent aircraftcarriers Cultural revolution as well as other elements of inflexibility in chinese military hierarchy are the most important single factors that counts. China is emerging and by industrial and economical level capaple of building big naval units, why not carriers as well, but that just wont be enough. If you would given ten million dollars, would you be able to build ten million dollar ship?? (presuming that you arent shipengineer)

Click to expand...

Military strength is invariably reflection of the country industrial base and strength. You can believe me I work in defense industry. Next to our line of military product we have the same line that produce civilian good.We share the same worker the same technology and the same management style

In economical level China of today migth be in better hands than Soviets at their higth, but trust me, China isent even bar with Soviets at their peak as what comes to naval devolpment/heritage/tradition and capacity to produce balanced fleet.

Click to expand...

When you pour so much money in defense related industry you got result. If I'm not wrong Russia spend 50% of the goverment spending on the military when her GDP is only 10% of US. Yes you build all kind of fancy weapon but for how long eventually the reality take over and Russia gone bust because her civilian economy is not competitive.
China case is different.For long time there is no urgency to compete with US on the ideological level There is nothing for China to gain for competing with US on the ideological ground

I never believe that technology was the constraint in building Carrier but politic and funding does

China military spending is pegged to 1.5% of GDP or 5% of goverment spending quite modest actually but as the size of Chinese economy grow 1.5% is 45 billion dollar slightly less than France budget Building carrier is expensive because you have take account of support and escort ship to form batttle group. Unless you have urgency you will be hard pressed to justify spending that kind of money when it can be used for other thing

But I believe that in order to allow the new SBN to operate in China sea She need to be protected from the surface ship. and The fact that now China import 50% of all its oil and raw material from overseas China must be able to protect SLOC

Politic is the other consideration because carrier is an offensive weapon It might unnerve the neighboring country and for long time China follow the dictum of DXP to bide for time and never to antagonize the US But I believe the new leadership is confident enough and feel that there is nothing to gain to please the US as Us is going to contain China anyway and kept selling offensive weapon to Taiwan So what the point of restraining yourself.

And still Russia failed... And Im not saying that China will fail, quite contrary, as soon as china gets carrier, the better, no matter how lousy desing it pics. The years of neglegt needs to be taken up, and no time is to be wasted anymore, but the crude fact is that Chinese military shipbuilding isent on that level that It can produce those things that the dupious article promises

Click to expand...

This is your personal opinion nothing more and nothing less

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

And didnt I just say that oil tankers arent aircraftcarriers Cultural revolution as well as other elements of inflexibility in chinese military hierarchy are the most important single factors that counts. China is emerging and by industrial and economical level capaple of building big naval units, why not carriers as well, but that just wont be enough. If you would given ten million dollars, would you be able to build ten million dollar ship?? (presuming that you arent shipengineer)

Click to expand...

Military strength is invariably reflection of the country industrial base and strength. You can believe me I work in defense industry. Next to our line of military product we have the same line that produce civilian good.We share the same worker the same technology and the same management style

In economical level China of today migth be in better hands than Soviets at their higth, but trust me, China isent even bar with Soviets at their peak as what comes to naval devolpment/heritage/tradition and capacity to produce balanced fleet.

Click to expand...

When you pour so much money in defense related industry you got result. If I'm not wrong Russia spend 50% of the goverment spending on the military when her GDP is only 10% of US. Yes you build all kind of fancy weapon but for how long eventually the reality take over and Russia gone bust because her civilian economy is not competitive.
China case is different.For long time there is no urgency to compete with US on the ideological level There is nothing for China to gain for competing with US on the ideological ground

I never believe that technology was the constraint in building Carrier but politic and funding does

China military spending is pegged to 1.5% of GDP or 5% of goverment spending quite modest actually but as the size of Chinese economy grow 1.5% is 45 billion dollar slightly less than France budget Building carrier is expensive because you have take account of support and escort ship to form batttle group. Unless you have urgency you will be hard pressed to justify spending that kind of money when it can be used for other thing

But I believe that in order to allow the new SBN to operate in China sea She need to be protected from the surface ship. and The fact that now China import 50% of all its oil and raw material from overseas China must be able to protect SLOC

Politic is the other consideration because carrier is an offensive weapon It might unnerve the neighboring country and for long time China follow the dictum of DXP to bide for time and never to antagonize the US But I believe the new leadership is confident enough and feel that there is nothing to gain to please the US as Us is going to contain China anyway and kept selling offensive weapon to Taiwan So what the point of restraining yourself.

And still Russia failed... And Im not saying that China will fail, quite contrary, as soon as china gets carrier, the better, no matter how lousy desing it pics. The years of neglegt needs to be taken up, and no time is to be wasted anymore, but the crude fact is that Chinese military shipbuilding isent on that level that It can produce those things that the dupious article promises

Click to expand...

This is your personal opinion nothing more and nothing less

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

And didnt I just say that oil tankers arent aircraftcarriers Cultural revolution as well as other elements of inflexibility in chinese military hierarchy are the most important single factors that counts. China is emerging and by industrial and economical level capaple of building big naval units, why not carriers as well, but that just wont be enough. If you would given ten million dollars, would you be able to build ten million dollar ship?? (presuming that you arent shipengineer)

Click to expand...

Military strength is invariably reflection of the country industrial base and strength. You can believe me I work in defense industry. Next to our line of military product we have the same line that produce civilian good.We share the same worker the same technology and the same management style

In economical level China of today migth be in better hands than Soviets at their higth, but trust me, China isent even bar with Soviets at their peak as what comes to naval devolpment/heritage/tradition and capacity to produce balanced fleet.

Click to expand...

When you pour so much money in defense related industry you got result. If I'm not wrong Russia spend 50% of the goverment spending on the military when her GDP is only 10% of US. Yes you build all kind of fancy weapon but for how long eventually the reality take over and Russia gone bust because her civilian economy is not competitive.
China case is different.For long time there is no urgency to compete with US on the ideological level There is nothing for China to gain for competing with US on the ideological ground

I never believe that technology was the constraint in building Carrier but politic and funding does

China military spending is pegged to 1.5% of GDP or 5% of goverment spending quite modest actually but as the size of Chinese economy grow 1.5% is 45 billion dollar slightly less than France budget Building carrier is expensive because you have take account of support and escort ship to form batttle group. Unless you have urgency you will be hard pressed to justify spending that kind of money when it can be used for other thing

But I believe that in order to allow the new SBN to operate in China sea She need to be protected from the surface ship. and The fact that now China import 50% of all its oil and raw material from overseas China must be able to protect SLOC

Politic is the other consideration because carrier is an offensive weapon It might unnerve the neighboring country and for long time China follow the dictum of DXP to bide for time and never to antagonize the US But I believe the new leadership is confident enough and feel that there is nothing to gain to please the US as Us is going to contain China anyway and kept selling offensive weapon to Taiwan So what the point of restraining yourself.

And still Russia failed... And Im not saying that China will fail, quite contrary, as soon as china gets carrier, the better, no matter how lousy desing it pics. The years of neglegt needs to be taken up, and no time is to be wasted anymore, but the crude fact is that Chinese military shipbuilding isent on that level that It can produce those things that the dupious article promises

Click to expand...

This is your personal opinion nothing more and nothing less

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:

I don't see what cultural revolution got to do with building a carrier Yes China lost years in technical development during the cultural revolution.

Click to expand...

You answered you own question in that sentence. Losing those years of technical development, and not having the funds available, has meant that their overall naval shipbuilding in general, including carrier development aspirations, are much further behind than they otherwise might have been. I believe that was part of Goll's point.

Hendrik_2000 said:

And it built sophisticated ship like LNG carrier and Supertanker

Click to expand...

As sophisticated and nice as they are, as phenominal as even the naval shipbuilding that the PLAN is now accomplishing, still, they are not super carriers and the PRC in general and the PLAN specifically are going to have to spend a lot of years to get that specific level of expertise right. It is clear, with the Varyag and their other projects, that they are not only determined to do so, but that they have started.

Hendrik_2000 said:

I believe your prejudice got the better of yourself because russia failed doesn't mean China has to fail too It has no correlation at all.

Click to expand...

Two tings, 1st, Goll is not being prejudiced, he is just being realistic and pragmatic. Try and look at it from that perspective and it will be easier for everyone involved, IMHO, to avoid hard feelings or arguement as opposed to rational and reasonable discussion.

2nd, it is likely that if the PLAN goes down the same path that the Soviets did, using the same equipment they they used, there is good possibility that if they are not careful theywill get similar results.

That may be ok for them. The PLAN may not have the same goals and operations in mind for its carriers as the US does with super carriers.

On the other hand, if the PLAN is using the old soviet hardware models to learn from, and then improve upon (which is what I believe they will do), then you will see the Varyag come out and test and train so that the PLAN gets expertise and operational experience over then 4-6 years following the Varyag's launch.

Then, and the folloing is purely based on my own best guess, 4-6 years after that, you will see the PLAN build a couple of CTOL carriers (meaning with some form of cat) to take advantage of that learning. Probably in the 50-60,000 ton range. After that, now with three opertional carriers, another 6 years and perhaps you will see a large carrie like the spoken of here...but that is now in the 2020 or later time frame.

It's going to take at least that long IMHO to develop a firm and successful maritime strategy based on the use of carrier groups according to whatever operating parameteres the PLAN comes up with.

In the mean time, her neighbors will not sit still. I expect to see the ROK and the Japanese field their own Sea Control carriers during the same time frame...and perhaps even Australia by that time will get back in the mix...not to mention where India will be at that point with three large carriers of their own.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:

I don't see what cultural revolution got to do with building a carrier Yes China lost years in technical development during the cultural revolution.

Click to expand...

You answered you own question in that sentence. Losing those years of technical development, and not having the funds available, has meant that their overall naval shipbuilding in general, including carrier development aspirations, are much further behind than they otherwise might have been. I believe that was part of Goll's point.

Hendrik_2000 said:

And it built sophisticated ship like LNG carrier and Supertanker

Click to expand...

As sophisticated and nice as they are, as phenominal as even the naval shipbuilding that the PLAN is now accomplishing, still, they are not super carriers and the PRC in general and the PLAN specifically are going to have to spend a lot of years to get that specific level of expertise right. It is clear, with the Varyag and their other projects, that they are not only determined to do so, but that they have started.

Hendrik_2000 said:

I believe your prejudice got the better of yourself because russia failed doesn't mean China has to fail too It has no correlation at all.

Click to expand...

Two tings, 1st, Goll is not being prejudiced, he is just being realistic and pragmatic. Try and look at it from that perspective and it will be easier for everyone involved, IMHO, to avoid hard feelings or arguement as opposed to rational and reasonable discussion.

2nd, it is likely that if the PLAN goes down the same path that the Soviets did, using the same equipment they they used, there is good possibility that if they are not careful theywill get similar results.

That may be ok for them. The PLAN may not have the same goals and operations in mind for its carriers as the US does with super carriers.

On the other hand, if the PLAN is using the old soviet hardware models to learn from, and then improve upon (which is what I believe they will do), then you will see the Varyag come out and test and train so that the PLAN gets expertise and operational experience over then 4-6 years following the Varyag's launch.

Then, and the folloing is purely based on my own best guess, 4-6 years after that, you will see the PLAN build a couple of CTOL carriers (meaning with some form of cat) to take advantage of that learning. Probably in the 50-60,000 ton range. After that, now with three opertional carriers, another 6 years and perhaps you will see a large carrie like the spoken of here...but that is now in the 2020 or later time frame.

It's going to take at least that long IMHO to develop a firm and successful maritime strategy based on the use of carrier groups according to whatever operating parameteres the PLAN comes up with.

In the mean time, her neighbors will not sit still. I expect to see the ROK and the Japanese field their own Sea Control carriers during the same time frame...and perhaps even Australia by that time will get back in the mix...not to mention where India will be at that point with three large carriers of their own.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:

I don't see what cultural revolution got to do with building a carrier Yes China lost years in technical development during the cultural revolution.

Click to expand...

You answered you own question in that sentence. Losing those years of technical development, and not having the funds available, has meant that their overall naval shipbuilding in general, including carrier development aspirations, are much further behind than they otherwise might have been. I believe that was part of Goll's point.

Hendrik_2000 said:

And it built sophisticated ship like LNG carrier and Supertanker

Click to expand...

As sophisticated and nice as they are, as phenominal as even the naval shipbuilding that the PLAN is now accomplishing, still, they are not super carriers and the PRC in general and the PLAN specifically are going to have to spend a lot of years to get that specific level of expertise right. It is clear, with the Varyag and their other projects, that they are not only determined to do so, but that they have started.

Hendrik_2000 said:

I believe your prejudice got the better of yourself because russia failed doesn't mean China has to fail too It has no correlation at all.

Click to expand...

Two tings, 1st, Goll is not being prejudiced, he is just being realistic and pragmatic. Try and look at it from that perspective and it will be easier for everyone involved, IMHO, to avoid hard feelings or arguement as opposed to rational and reasonable discussion.

2nd, it is likely that if the PLAN goes down the same path that the Soviets did, using the same equipment they they used, there is good possibility that if they are not careful theywill get similar results.

That may be ok for them. The PLAN may not have the same goals and operations in mind for its carriers as the US does with super carriers.

On the other hand, if the PLAN is using the old soviet hardware models to learn from, and then improve upon (which is what I believe they will do), then you will see the Varyag come out and test and train so that the PLAN gets expertise and operational experience over then 4-6 years following the Varyag's launch.

Then, and the folloing is purely based on my own best guess, 4-6 years after that, you will see the PLAN build a couple of CTOL carriers (meaning with some form of cat) to take advantage of that learning. Probably in the 50-60,000 ton range. After that, now with three opertional carriers, another 6 years and perhaps you will see a large carrie like the spoken of here...but that is now in the 2020 or later time frame.

It's going to take at least that long IMHO to develop a firm and successful maritime strategy based on the use of carrier groups according to whatever operating parameteres the PLAN comes up with.

In the mean time, her neighbors will not sit still. I expect to see the ROK and the Japanese field their own Sea Control carriers during the same time frame...and perhaps even Australia by that time will get back in the mix...not to mention where India will be at that point with three large carriers of their own.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

China's shipbuilding industry is not sophisticated. It's very good at building cheap, low profit and small ships. It's finally moving into building VLCCs, but they are still way behind the South Koreans in LNG carriers. We don't even need to get into luxurious cruisers and such. While China is not the bottom feeder (I think Vietnam is), it's definitely in the low end of the shipbuilding industry in terms of the vessels that it's building. Of course, the fact that it has cornered out 25% of the world market allowed it to improve its technology, ship designing capability and workmanship. But let's be clear here, ships are being built in China, because Chinese labour is cheap, not because other countries can't build them. Of course, most of us predict something in the Varyag size using conventional power and steam catapult for the first carrier. And even that is a huge step for China considering the biggest thing they built so far is 071. I was pretty much laughing when I read the stuff about 93K tonne carrier that's equivalent to Nimitz class.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

China's shipbuilding industry is not sophisticated. It's very good at building cheap, low profit and small ships. It's finally moving into building VLCCs, but they are still way behind the South Koreans in LNG carriers. We don't even need to get into luxurious cruisers and such. While China is not the bottom feeder (I think Vietnam is), it's definitely in the low end of the shipbuilding industry in terms of the vessels that it's building. Of course, the fact that it has cornered out 25% of the world market allowed it to improve its technology, ship designing capability and workmanship. But let's be clear here, ships are being built in China, because Chinese labour is cheap, not because other countries can't build them. Of course, most of us predict something in the Varyag size using conventional power and steam catapult for the first carrier. And even that is a huge step for China considering the biggest thing they built so far is 071. I was pretty much laughing when I read the stuff about 93K tonne carrier that's equivalent to Nimitz class.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

China's shipbuilding industry is not sophisticated. It's very good at building cheap, low profit and small ships. It's finally moving into building VLCCs, but they are still way behind the South Koreans in LNG carriers. We don't even need to get into luxurious cruisers and such. While China is not the bottom feeder (I think Vietnam is), it's definitely in the low end of the shipbuilding industry in terms of the vessels that it's building. Of course, the fact that it has cornered out 25% of the world market allowed it to improve its technology, ship designing capability and workmanship. But let's be clear here, ships are being built in China, because Chinese labour is cheap, not because other countries can't build them. Of course, most of us predict something in the Varyag size using conventional power and steam catapult for the first carrier. And even that is a huge step for China considering the biggest thing they built so far is 071. I was pretty much laughing when I read the stuff about 93K tonne carrier that's equivalent to Nimitz class.

tphuang said:

China's shipbuilding industry is not sophisticated. It's very good at building cheap, low profit and small ships. It's finally moving into building VLCCs, but they are still way behind the South Koreans in LNG carriers. We don't even need to get into luxurious cruisers and such. While China is not the bottom feeder (I think Vietnam is), it's definitely in the low end of the shipbuilding industry in terms of the vessels that it's building. Of course, the fact that it has cornered out 25% of the world market allowed it to improve its technology, ship designing capability and workmanship. But let's be clear here, ships are being built in China, because Chinese labour is cheap, not because other countries can't build them. Of course, most of us predict something in the Varyag size using conventional power and steam catapult for the first carrier. And even that is a huge step for China considering the biggest thing they built so far is 071. I was pretty much laughing when I read the stuff about 93K tonne carrier that's equivalent to Nimitz class.

Click to expand...

What you mean by behind korea in LNG yes in term of tonnage sold to the world market but Do you know the inside out of the specification for the new LNG that they build now or it is just your own opinion?

As some one who also work in process industry there is no such thing as backward when you have to refrigerate natural gas to liquid form The steel will easily break up in such low temperature You need all kind of postweld heat treatment and work with exotic alloy

Here it is from the horses mouth itself you be the judge

China confirmed the first carrier

in Hong Kong on March 17, 2007 proved to be the first carrier in China Daily,

Zhang Yunchuan : Based made preparations for the smooth [Daily -- An experts : Regarding recent U.S. intelligence showed there were rumors that China is making self-carrier, Zhang Yunchuan, director of Commission of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense confirmed the news yesterday that it is studying options, based on the self-construction. And large aircraft research and manufacturing, will also start soon.

This is the first foreign military aircraft carrier to recognize their construction plans. Zhang Yunchuan said that the central government is considering the construction of aircraft carriers, and based on their manufacture, and the old rumor is not the carrier for technological transformation. He disclosed that preparations are under way for the carrier to create, but take a very long time, but the current preparatory work smoothly.

Many technical problems have been overcome. Central has not yet determined to build the ships, said Zhang Yunchuan, if determined to believe that the Central Construction aircraft technology have absolute confidence in the industrial sector. will make every effort to complete the project. Earlier this with the Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense spokesman Huang Qiang revealed that China has the ability to manufacture aircraft carrier speech the same.

In addition, it has attracted attention within and outside the country on behalf of the competitiveness of the project, the development of high ground. Zhang Yunchuan said that the aircraft research projects will soon enter the stage started.

According to earlier news, the research is very difficult, the cycle will be longer. China's large aircraft will be a special inter-estimated two to three five-year plan, and preliminary work is otherwise solid and the key to success.