PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

And still Russia failed...
Let's be clear here. Russia did not fail to deploy a CV fleet for technical reasons, but for financial reasons. They went bankrupt in 1990/91 and money for military R&D dried up. The two Kuznetzovs were built with ski jumps instead of catapults because the cats were still under development (and considering all the soviet spies in the US and Britain over the course of the cold war I'd be surprised if they didn't have a full set of plans for a steam catapult somewhere). The third CV, the Ulyanovsk was to be the sea going test bed for catapults (two in the waist position with a ski jump at the bow) which would allow a wider range of aircraft to be deployed, ie AEW and COD for example. Cats would then most likely be retrofitted to the two earlier ships to allow the same types to be operated by all (economies of scale here). Ski jumps allow QRA fighters to launch at short notice, but without AEW aircraft their value is much diminished, hence the need for cats. The technology involved in steam catapults is not particularly advanced, certainly for a nation (China) with a manned space program, and the expertise necessary could be acquired from several nations around the world (Argentina, Brazil, Australia,-who provided a whole catapult in 1985! Holland, India, UK, USA) although some would be less likely than others to provide their engineering services, money talks.

Could China build a CV as big as a Nimitz? Yes. Would it be of any military value? No, it would be a death trap at their current level of shipbuilding knowledge, but might be useable enough to provide a training CV for a while. Varyag is at leased based on a proven design (albeit one proven inferior to western practice, it works at least) so sensibly she will be the PLANs first step. The Chinese aren't stupid, and they are fast learners, and Varyag will be like going to university for Chinese engineers and seamen alike, as much for what it will show them not to do as for what they will learn positively. Roll on 2008...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:

The nation also has a plan to build a 48,000-ton non-nuclear-powered carrier under the so-called "089 Project," added the source.

According to the dossier, China plans to construct a non-atomic-powered carrier as a transition stage to building the larger nuclear-powered one. The non-atomic-powered carrier, due to be completed in 2010, will be a mid-sized carrier with a standard displacement of 48,000 tons and a full-load displacement of 64,000 tons and will be able to carry 30-40 Chinese-built J-10 fighters, which China fielded in December last year. The Chinese authorities are reportedly overhauling J-10 fighters to be loaded onto the new aircraft carriers. Until the work is complete, the new carriers are going to handle 10-20 Russian-made Su-33 fighters.

Click to expand...

Hendrik_2000 said:

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.And they have domestic design of nuclear power plant the size of 300 Megawatt.

Click to expand...

Let's see, we're in... March 2007? So this "Korean Naval Intelligence" claims China would build a brand new conventionally powered 48,000-64,000 ton carrier in 3 years? From the wording, I'm assuming they're not referring to the Varyag, but a brand new ship?

I'm hearing the twilight zone music going off in the background atm...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:

The nation also has a plan to build a 48,000-ton non-nuclear-powered carrier under the so-called "089 Project," added the source.

According to the dossier, China plans to construct a non-atomic-powered carrier as a transition stage to building the larger nuclear-powered one. The non-atomic-powered carrier, due to be completed in 2010, will be a mid-sized carrier with a standard displacement of 48,000 tons and a full-load displacement of 64,000 tons and will be able to carry 30-40 Chinese-built J-10 fighters, which China fielded in December last year. The Chinese authorities are reportedly overhauling J-10 fighters to be loaded onto the new aircraft carriers. Until the work is complete, the new carriers are going to handle 10-20 Russian-made Su-33 fighters.

Click to expand...

Hendrik_2000 said:

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.And they have domestic design of nuclear power plant the size of 300 Megawatt.

Click to expand...

Let's see, we're in... March 2007? So this "Korean Naval Intelligence" claims China would build a brand new conventionally powered 48,000-64,000 ton carrier in 3 years? From the wording, I'm assuming they're not referring to the Varyag, but a brand new ship?

I'm hearing the twilight zone music going off in the background atm...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:

The nation also has a plan to build a 48,000-ton non-nuclear-powered carrier under the so-called "089 Project," added the source.

According to the dossier, China plans to construct a non-atomic-powered carrier as a transition stage to building the larger nuclear-powered one. The non-atomic-powered carrier, due to be completed in 2010, will be a mid-sized carrier with a standard displacement of 48,000 tons and a full-load displacement of 64,000 tons and will be able to carry 30-40 Chinese-built J-10 fighters, which China fielded in December last year. The Chinese authorities are reportedly overhauling J-10 fighters to be loaded onto the new aircraft carriers. Until the work is complete, the new carriers are going to handle 10-20 Russian-made Su-33 fighters.

Click to expand...

Hendrik_2000 said:

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.And they have domestic design of nuclear power plant the size of 300 Megawatt.

Click to expand...

Let's see, we're in... March 2007? So this "Korean Naval Intelligence" claims China would build a brand new conventionally powered 48,000-64,000 ton carrier in 3 years? From the wording, I'm assuming they're not referring to the Varyag, but a brand new ship?

I'm hearing the twilight zone music going off in the background atm...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

I think you and Popeye are also going a little overboard. You make it sound like China needs to go through the same 80 year learning curve the U.S. did.

Click to expand...

I never said that. In point of fact the USN was safely operating CV's in the 1930's.

That doesn't mean they know anything about carriers, but they've got the resources to learn quickly.

Click to expand...

No they do not know "anything" about CV's. Well certainly they don't know how to operate them. Quickly learn? If quickly is 5 years or so. Point in fact . When the USN commissioned CVN-76 in 2003 it took 3 years to train up the crew so they could deploy for the first time in 2006. This is with experienced NCO and officers doing the training. Last I check the PLAN has zero CV trained personell.

They guys studying the Varyag aren't just copying stuff they don't understand, they've previously built tankers, container ships, subs, frigates and destroyers.

Click to expand...

I agree.

However an aircraft carrier is different. It really is. It cannot be compared to any other ship. Of course all ships have similarites. The size and the compartmentalization is staggering. There are systems on a USN CV that are not present on other ships. Aircraft elevators. Different firefighting equipment. All sorts of hoist, conveyors, other elevators, pumps, axillary motors and power stations, huge ammo magazines, aviation fuel storage, separate public address systems.....and so much more.

The crew will, of course, need a lot of training.

Click to expand...

You better believe it. They may have to use Russian sailors to train the PLAN sailors on CV operations. Or perhaps they have another plan...It will take 3-5 years to make the first PLAN CV operational.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

I think you and Popeye are also going a little overboard. You make it sound like China needs to go through the same 80 year learning curve the U.S. did.

Click to expand...

I never said that. In point of fact the USN was safely operating CV's in the 1930's.

That doesn't mean they know anything about carriers, but they've got the resources to learn quickly.

Click to expand...

No they do not know "anything" about CV's. Well certainly they don't know how to operate them. Quickly learn? If quickly is 5 years or so. Point in fact . When the USN commissioned CVN-76 in 2003 it took 3 years to train up the crew so they could deploy for the first time in 2006. This is with experienced NCO and officers doing the training. Last I check the PLAN has zero CV trained personell.

They guys studying the Varyag aren't just copying stuff they don't understand, they've previously built tankers, container ships, subs, frigates and destroyers.

Click to expand...

I agree.

However an aircraft carrier is different. It really is. It cannot be compared to any other ship. Of course all ships have similarites. The size and the compartmentalization is staggering. There are systems on a USN CV that are not present on other ships. Aircraft elevators. Different firefighting equipment. All sorts of hoist, conveyors, other elevators, pumps, axillary motors and power stations, huge ammo magazines, aviation fuel storage, separate public address systems.....and so much more.

The crew will, of course, need a lot of training.

Click to expand...

You better believe it. They may have to use Russian sailors to train the PLAN sailors on CV operations. Or perhaps they have another plan...It will take 3-5 years to make the first PLAN CV operational.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

I think you and Popeye are also going a little overboard. You make it sound like China needs to go through the same 80 year learning curve the U.S. did.

Click to expand...

I never said that. In point of fact the USN was safely operating CV's in the 1930's.

That doesn't mean they know anything about carriers, but they've got the resources to learn quickly.

Click to expand...

No they do not know "anything" about CV's. Well certainly they don't know how to operate them. Quickly learn? If quickly is 5 years or so. Point in fact . When the USN commissioned CVN-76 in 2003 it took 3 years to train up the crew so they could deploy for the first time in 2006. This is with experienced NCO and officers doing the training. Last I check the PLAN has zero CV trained personell.

They guys studying the Varyag aren't just copying stuff they don't understand, they've previously built tankers, container ships, subs, frigates and destroyers.

Click to expand...

I agree.

However an aircraft carrier is different. It really is. It cannot be compared to any other ship. Of course all ships have similarites. The size and the compartmentalization is staggering. There are systems on a USN CV that are not present on other ships. Aircraft elevators. Different firefighting equipment. All sorts of hoist, conveyors, other elevators, pumps, axillary motors and power stations, huge ammo magazines, aviation fuel storage, separate public address systems.....and so much more.

The crew will, of course, need a lot of training.

Click to expand...

You better believe it. They may have to use Russian sailors to train the PLAN sailors on CV operations. Or perhaps they have another plan...It will take 3-5 years to make the first PLAN CV operational.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well Obiwan, Russians failed IMHO.
First of all, the fact why there werent cats onboard Kuznetsov and Varyag was a due political decission, based on wrong knowledge and false expectations of the capacities of VSTOL planes performance. The plans for the ships were constantly re-thinked and in the orginal conclusion was to have them to operate solely on VSTOL planes, thus the ski-jump. Only later it was found out that theorethically fast and powerfull enough jets can operate from it aslo, so it was a lucky shot....In overal capacity the Whole idea is stil rather dupious and the tactical capacity of such concept raises too much questions to beragarded as succesfull solution...

There never were doupt that Soviets couldn't build catabults on time, they were along in the early stages of the Orel project as well as kuznetsov. The political decission to not to have catabults was made too early, and revisited too late to ready for the ships. It was only with Uljanovsk that cats were to be fitted. But Orginally Kuznetsovs were designed to have the catabults, there are even preliminary scethes available. The arm-wrestling between the conventional aircrafts and VSTOL aircrafts ended up the laters favour.

Soviets had in fact better standing point when they first started to seek carriers than china has now. Soviets just had almoust every possiple political screwups that there could have been poured on them. If china can avoid the ill-knowlidgble political desicions taking it backwards, the time used for the first carrier to roll out would be shorter. There would only be the technological cap which can be eliminated but it doesen't mean they are ready for 93,000 tonner in 2020.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well Obiwan, Russians failed IMHO.
First of all, the fact why there werent cats onboard Kuznetsov and Varyag was a due political decission, based on wrong knowledge and false expectations of the capacities of VSTOL planes performance. The plans for the ships were constantly re-thinked and in the orginal conclusion was to have them to operate solely on VSTOL planes, thus the ski-jump. Only later it was found out that theorethically fast and powerfull enough jets can operate from it aslo, so it was a lucky shot....In overal capacity the Whole idea is stil rather dupious and the tactical capacity of such concept raises too much questions to beragarded as succesfull solution...

There never were doupt that Soviets couldn't build catabults on time, they were along in the early stages of the Orel project as well as kuznetsov. The political decission to not to have catabults was made too early, and revisited too late to ready for the ships. It was only with Uljanovsk that cats were to be fitted. But Orginally Kuznetsovs were designed to have the catabults, there are even preliminary scethes available. The arm-wrestling between the conventional aircrafts and VSTOL aircrafts ended up the laters favour.

Soviets had in fact better standing point when they first started to seek carriers than china has now. Soviets just had almoust every possiple political screwups that there could have been poured on them. If china can avoid the ill-knowlidgble political desicions taking it backwards, the time used for the first carrier to roll out would be shorter. There would only be the technological cap which can be eliminated but it doesen't mean they are ready for 93,000 tonner in 2020.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well Obiwan, Russians failed IMHO.
First of all, the fact why there werent cats onboard Kuznetsov and Varyag was a due political decission, based on wrong knowledge and false expectations of the capacities of VSTOL planes performance. The plans for the ships were constantly re-thinked and in the orginal conclusion was to have them to operate solely on VSTOL planes, thus the ski-jump. Only later it was found out that theorethically fast and powerfull enough jets can operate from it aslo, so it was a lucky shot....In overal capacity the Whole idea is stil rather dupious and the tactical capacity of such concept raises too much questions to beragarded as succesfull solution...

There never were doupt that Soviets couldn't build catabults on time, they were along in the early stages of the Orel project as well as kuznetsov. The political decission to not to have catabults was made too early, and revisited too late to ready for the ships. It was only with Uljanovsk that cats were to be fitted. But Orginally Kuznetsovs were designed to have the catabults, there are even preliminary scethes available. The arm-wrestling between the conventional aircrafts and VSTOL aircrafts ended up the laters favour.

Soviets had in fact better standing point when they first started to seek carriers than china has now. Soviets just had almoust every possiple political screwups that there could have been poured on them. If china can avoid the ill-knowlidgble political desicions taking it backwards, the time used for the first carrier to roll out would be shorter. There would only be the technological cap which can be eliminated but it doesen't mean they are ready for 93,000 tonner in 2020.