PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.And they have domestic design of nuclear power plant the size of 300 Megawatt. The only problem I can see is shielding. Where in civilian nuclear power plant you have no constraint on weight and dimension In ship space and weight is prime consideration .But once again they seem to solve the shielding problem in their nuclear submarine.

Once you solved the power source the rest are just conventional steam turbine no big deal!

As far as ship building I don't think they have problem with building large ship The only constraint is the size of shipyard Now that the new Changxin shipyard is in operation I would say it quite probable

The other thing coming from South Korea sources it lends more credibility because South Korea has a close working relationship with chinese shipyard. All the major Korean shipbuilder like Hyundai has subsidiary in China and The Chinese shipyard regularly recruit technical personnel in Korea

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.And they have domestic design of nuclear power plant the size of 300 Megawatt. The only problem I can see is shielding. Where in civilian nuclear power plant you have no constraint on weight and dimension In ship space and weight is prime consideration .But once again they seem to solve the shielding problem in their nuclear submarine.

Once you solved the power source the rest are just conventional steam turbine no big deal!

As far as ship building I don't think they have problem with building large ship The only constraint is the size of shipyard Now that the new Changxin shipyard is in operation I would say it quite probable

The other thing coming from South Korea sources it lends more credibility because South Korea has a close working relationship with chinese shipyard. All the major Korean shipbuilder like Hyundai has subsidiary in China and The Chinese shipyard regularly recruit technical personnel in Korea

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.And they have domestic design of nuclear power plant the size of 300 Megawatt. The only problem I can see is shielding. Where in civilian nuclear power plant you have no constraint on weight and dimension In ship space and weight is prime consideration .But once again they seem to solve the shielding problem in their nuclear submarine.

Once you solved the power source the rest are just conventional steam turbine no big deal!

As far as ship building I don't think they have problem with building large ship The only constraint is the size of shipyard Now that the new Changxin shipyard is in operation I would say it quite probable

The other thing coming from South Korea sources it lends more credibility because South Korea has a close working relationship with chinese shipyard. All the major Korean shipbuilder like Hyundai has subsidiary in China and The Chinese shipyard regularly recruit technical personnel in Korea

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.

Click to expand...

Once again we start enter into rather sad territory of what It comes to overal logic and reasoning.
If it is what someone wants to believe, you just decide that it must be from "korean military inteligence" becouse the page that post the rumour is Korean...And as those someones wants this to be so true, they wont spend a minute to doupt the source but on contrary spend two minutes to glorify and silver-sparnkle the dupious source so they have something to repeat as mantra if someone dares to guestion the ultimate truth

after all, Internet is the most highable source of them all

And to compare the claims to the reality, china hardly can design viable destroyers and frigate size ships. After years of snifing around Varyag, Ofcourse they will come experts of carrier engineerings, why not Variag clearly presents the ultimate supermacy in all sea-borne aviation solutions....come on guys, dot make fools out of yourselfs.

Aircraft carriers presents the most sophisticated and difficoult ship classes to desing and build, as did Battle ships in the past. No small nation managed to produce succsfull capital ships, even such pioneering naval nation as Russia was forced to seek foreing help to produce succsefull Battle-ship and cruiser desings.
Aircraft carriers are same. Only nations that have produced them are those of centuries heritage of capital unit building and desings. Spain, thougth great martime power couldnt do it themselves and was forced to go for US for blueprints of its carrier, and only building duplicate of it later on to Thailand.
Italy as sligthly experienced managed to do the smallest and simplest one largerly by their own, but when the ships rise to conventional aircraft operations, even the French were in trouple. Their super-carrier projects died as they werent able to desing feasible modern solution for it....Not to mention Soviets proplem and ill-fated results...

And I wonder why everyone seems to forget, that chinese modern shipbuilding heritage is roughly 17 years old, you dont start building carriers before you have gain enough experience to build succesfull frigates, destroyers and perhaps a cruiser or two...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.

Click to expand...

Once again we start enter into rather sad territory of what It comes to overal logic and reasoning.
If it is what someone wants to believe, you just decide that it must be from "korean military inteligence" becouse the page that post the rumour is Korean...And as those someones wants this to be so true, they wont spend a minute to doupt the source but on contrary spend two minutes to glorify and silver-sparnkle the dupious source so they have something to repeat as mantra if someone dares to guestion the ultimate truth

after all, Internet is the most highable source of them all

And to compare the claims to the reality, china hardly can design viable destroyers and frigate size ships. After years of snifing around Varyag, Ofcourse they will come experts of carrier engineerings, why not Variag clearly presents the ultimate supermacy in all sea-borne aviation solutions....come on guys, dot make fools out of yourselfs.

Aircraft carriers presents the most sophisticated and difficoult ship classes to desing and build, as did Battle ships in the past. No small nation managed to produce succsfull capital ships, even such pioneering naval nation as Russia was forced to seek foreing help to produce succsefull Battle-ship and cruiser desings.
Aircraft carriers are same. Only nations that have produced them are those of centuries heritage of capital unit building and desings. Spain, thougth great martime power couldnt do it themselves and was forced to go for US for blueprints of its carrier, and only building duplicate of it later on to Thailand.
Italy as sligthly experienced managed to do the smallest and simplest one largerly by their own, but when the ships rise to conventional aircraft operations, even the French were in trouple. Their super-carrier projects died as they werent able to desing feasible modern solution for it....Not to mention Soviets proplem and ill-fated results...

And I wonder why everyone seems to forget, that chinese modern shipbuilding heritage is roughly 17 years old, you dont start building carriers before you have gain enough experience to build succesfull frigates, destroyers and perhaps a cruiser or two...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Well this report was based on dossier from south Korean sources presumably Korean navy inteligence It has nothing to do with PLAN fanboy But seriously if you think about it, They have mucked around with Varyag for years now.

Click to expand...

Once again we start enter into rather sad territory of what It comes to overal logic and reasoning.
If it is what someone wants to believe, you just decide that it must be from "korean military inteligence" becouse the page that post the rumour is Korean...And as those someones wants this to be so true, they wont spend a minute to doupt the source but on contrary spend two minutes to glorify and silver-sparnkle the dupious source so they have something to repeat as mantra if someone dares to guestion the ultimate truth

after all, Internet is the most highable source of them all

And to compare the claims to the reality, china hardly can design viable destroyers and frigate size ships. After years of snifing around Varyag, Ofcourse they will come experts of carrier engineerings, why not Variag clearly presents the ultimate supermacy in all sea-borne aviation solutions....come on guys, dot make fools out of yourselfs.

Aircraft carriers presents the most sophisticated and difficoult ship classes to desing and build, as did Battle ships in the past. No small nation managed to produce succsfull capital ships, even such pioneering naval nation as Russia was forced to seek foreing help to produce succsefull Battle-ship and cruiser desings.
Aircraft carriers are same. Only nations that have produced them are those of centuries heritage of capital unit building and desings. Spain, thougth great martime power couldnt do it themselves and was forced to go for US for blueprints of its carrier, and only building duplicate of it later on to Thailand.
Italy as sligthly experienced managed to do the smallest and simplest one largerly by their own, but when the ships rise to conventional aircraft operations, even the French were in trouple. Their super-carrier projects died as they werent able to desing feasible modern solution for it....Not to mention Soviets proplem and ill-fated results...

And I wonder why everyone seems to forget, that chinese modern shipbuilding heritage is roughly 17 years old, you dont start building carriers before you have gain enough experience to build succesfull frigates, destroyers and perhaps a cruiser or two...

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Gollevainen said:

And I wonder why everyone seems to forget, that chinese modern shipbuilding heritage is roughly 17 years old, you dont start building carriers before you have gain enough experience to build succesfull frigates, destroyers and perhaps a cruiser or two...

Click to expand...

While I agree with the overall message of your post - of course it will take a long time to develop a modern carrier - I think you and Popeye are also going a little overboard. You make it sound like China needs to go through the same 80 year learning curve the U.S. did.

Centuries of warship building history aren't worth that much. Technologies change and experienced people can be hired away. Today China's shipbuilding industry is bigger than the U.S. and Russia's combined.

That doesn't mean they know anything about carriers, but they've got the resources to learn quickly. They guys studying the Varyag aren't just copying stuff they don't understand, they've previously built tankers, container ships, subs, frigates and destroyers.

Whatever China finally comes out with when they launch their first carrier, you can bet it will be better than the original Varyag (started construction 1985?). It'll have (at least) comparable layout, better engines, better weapons, better radar, and better command and control, and better planes.

The crew will, of course, need a lot of training.

... Ami.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Gollevainen said:

And I wonder why everyone seems to forget, that chinese modern shipbuilding heritage is roughly 17 years old, you dont start building carriers before you have gain enough experience to build succesfull frigates, destroyers and perhaps a cruiser or two...

Click to expand...

While I agree with the overall message of your post - of course it will take a long time to develop a modern carrier - I think you and Popeye are also going a little overboard. You make it sound like China needs to go through the same 80 year learning curve the U.S. did.

Centuries of warship building history aren't worth that much. Technologies change and experienced people can be hired away. Today China's shipbuilding industry is bigger than the U.S. and Russia's combined.

That doesn't mean they know anything about carriers, but they've got the resources to learn quickly. They guys studying the Varyag aren't just copying stuff they don't understand, they've previously built tankers, container ships, subs, frigates and destroyers.

Whatever China finally comes out with when they launch their first carrier, you can bet it will be better than the original Varyag (started construction 1985?). It'll have (at least) comparable layout, better engines, better weapons, better radar, and better command and control, and better planes.

The crew will, of course, need a lot of training.

... Ami.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Gollevainen said:

And I wonder why everyone seems to forget, that chinese modern shipbuilding heritage is roughly 17 years old, you dont start building carriers before you have gain enough experience to build succesfull frigates, destroyers and perhaps a cruiser or two...

Click to expand...

While I agree with the overall message of your post - of course it will take a long time to develop a modern carrier - I think you and Popeye are also going a little overboard. You make it sound like China needs to go through the same 80 year learning curve the U.S. did.

Centuries of warship building history aren't worth that much. Technologies change and experienced people can be hired away. Today China's shipbuilding industry is bigger than the U.S. and Russia's combined.

That doesn't mean they know anything about carriers, but they've got the resources to learn quickly. They guys studying the Varyag aren't just copying stuff they don't understand, they've previously built tankers, container ships, subs, frigates and destroyers.

Whatever China finally comes out with when they launch their first carrier, you can bet it will be better than the original Varyag (started construction 1985?). It'll have (at least) comparable layout, better engines, better weapons, better radar, and better command and control, and better planes.

The crew will, of course, need a lot of training.

... Ami.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

No its not that simple. Shipdesigning is not an easy task, exspecially when designing warships. Warships with huge enough to field an airstirp ontop...

China has been in the warshipbuilding industry since the 1950's but had it's first three decades of showing basicly no progress at all. They were tied to redesing already obcolent soviet warship models and had huge proplems in the very basics of technology not to mention about the workmanship and quality issues. This was ofcourse becouse of the illfavorably conditions. Non existing industrial base and shipbuilding traditions, Breakup with the "big-brother", genious marvels of "great leap forwards" and "cultural revolution"...they were the biggest overall reaosn for the backwardness of the chinese development in almoust all areas. Only in late 80's and early 90's was there any progress. This progress emerged as it would do with in reasonable limits. It was a huge leap to developt the first indegenious destroyer design and it was done so basicly with blind-folden. These babysteps were shaky and unbalanced but still they headed forwards.

Now after 17 years china is still taking those steps (unlike many of you may think). The first indegenious destroyer, Luhu class had it's illfated and ill-logical follower from the Luhai class (which history I explained in the 167 mod thread) and now there's the seccond generation luhu's (which was actually more viable design than its intial follower) are being fielded but all sighs points that China is not so happy with the results.

The babysteps continue, the PLAN has emerged to the "toddler-age" and is now eagerly trying everything new. Also it now seems that its having succes with the 054A and is finally having relatively modern major surface combatant into serial production.

...But to design and build a 93,000 ton aircraft carrier? Its as realistic given to the current state of chinese cababilites as it is to see a Polish Sthealt fighter emerging to challenge the f-22...

China has no experience of building warships of over 10,000 tons. To design a small VSTOL carrier of just above that tonnage would be enourmous and almoust impossiple task to the chinese builders. Aircraft carriers aren't container ships. They are not oil tankers, or any other civilian sector "big ships". Aircraft carriers are the biggest and most complicated warships existing today and to have one that is actually workable ship, you need to know exactly what you are doing. How on earht do you expect chinese to know what it takes to build 93,000 ton supercarrier? Yeas they have studied Varyag...The last offsping of another noob country's effort to do exactly the same as Chinese are doing now. And suprise, suprise they didn't do that well. Soviets carriers were from the shipdesign point of wiev completely unsuccesfull. Moskvas and Kievs had poor seakeeping and handeling proplems and with the politicans screwing the decision making, the air-capabilities were as horrible. Varyag (which followed the hulldesign from the Kiev class) is 60,000 ton carrier with practical aviation cababilites of that of 27,000 ton Centaurio class. Only difference is that at least Centaurios had Catabults before the VSTOL hype...
Studying Varyag is only good if you wish to point out what you shouldn't do. But thats all what China has now and they should make all the efforts of it. But it's not going to help them to make this supercarrier that this "article" promises...

China doesen't need 80 years, but it still needs years....First to get balanced and viable shipdevelopment line with the normal warshisp, then get the Varyag finished and only after then will they be ready for the next challenge which is to developt an indegenious carriers but those will be far more realistic than this mentioned above. It takes decades at least. My obinion and guess is that we see one emerging to the building phase around 2020...


But untill then, lets just wait and get Varyag lauched first, then start dreaming with supercarriers exiding all current designs.