PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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vesicles

Colonel
Sorry Mr. Head, I mean no disrespect, but not knowing what the qualification standards are for both the pilots and the aircraft I must withold my enthusiasm. So far all I have seen are some PR or propaganda pieces for a half assed carrier and some aircraft that due to the lack of catapults will lack sufficient range and the ability to get airborne with a decent load of weapons as to be a negible threat to any serious competitor. Just my 30 years USN experience thinking out loud.

You gotta let them do it one step at a time. The USN carrier ops did not start out doing the things you listed. I'm sure the USN did not do any of the things listed by you on its first trial of its first CV. I don't think anyone in the world doubts that PLAN carrier ops is still in its infancy, which means they still get a long way to go. In order to get there, they have to do it one step at a time. Just like parents get excited about the first step by their baby, you don't have to rain on the parade by telling them that their kid still can't jump through hoops. Heck, the kid can't even run yet... Look at me, I can do all sorts of tricks with my legs and my feet... Everyone knows that...
 

jacksprat

New Member
You gotta let them do it one step at a time. The USN carrier ops did not start out doing the things you listed. I'm sure the USN did not do any of the things listed by you on its first trial of its first CV. I don't think anyone in the world doubts that PLAN carrier ops is still in its infancy, which means they still get a long way to go. In order to get there, they have to do it one step at a time. Just like parents get excited about the first step by their baby, you don't have to rain on the parade by telling them that their kid still can't jump through hoops. Heck, the kid can't even run yet... Look at me, I can do all sorts of tricks with my legs and my feet... Everyone knows that...

Sorry, it must be my cynical nature, I don't believe everything that my own gov't puts out either, there is always an agenda.
Much more so in countries where the press is fed on a regular basis by gov't organs. I fully realize that the PLA Navy is in the very early days of its carrier aviation program, which is why I am not overly enthused over the progress so far. It's way to early to be so enthusiastic as some of the posters on this thread are.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Sorry, it must be my cynical nature, I don't believe everything that my own gov't puts out either, there is always an agenda.
Much more so in countries where the press is fed on a regular basis by gov't organs. I fully realize that the PLA Navy is in the very early days of its carrier aviation program, which is why I am not overly enthused over the progress so far. It's way to early to be so enthusiastic as some of the posters on this thread are.

What is your point ? We are not here to discuss politic. You are entitle to your bias prejudice or red neck attitude But please keep it to yourself we are not interested in your opinion. If you have nothing to contribute but sneering maybe you should visit other forum that is more inline with your ideology . Very annoying post
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Sorry Mr. Head, I mean no disrespect, but not knowing what the qualification standards are for both the pilots and the aircraft I must withold my enthusiasm. So far all I have seen are some PR or propaganda pieces for a half assed carrier and some aircraft that due to the lack of catapults will lack sufficient range and the ability to get airborne with a decent load of weapons as to be a negible threat to any serious competitor. Just my 30 years USN experience thinking out loud.
None taken.

The Chinese have a decent STOBAR carrier, with all its limitations. They have a very good strike fighter with a high thrust to weight ratio to operate off of it. They will have more range and more ordinance than we typically imagine because of the capabilities of the J-15, and I expect they will figure out and institute refueling, minimally from buddy stores themselves.

They have now completely refit and modernized this carrier, put it to sea, reverse engineered and are building themselves the J-15 strike fighter from their SU-27 - J-11B and SU-33 prototype experience, and now are deploying that aboard their new carrier.

They have spent significant resources, funds, and man-hours and intellect getting here. They have built and instituted a large Naval Aviation training facility which their new pilots attend and graduate from in order to get the chance to start qualifying on the carrier.

Do they have a long way to go? You bet! Of course. They have just started.

But it is also clear that they currently have the will and the resources to move forward, and they are doing so. I expect they will take 3-4 more years just to get their two squadrons up to speed and qualified on the many issues they require for full operation of their carrier...minimally. But, at that point they will be in a position for this carrier to perform the naval duties they desire. By that time, they may well have another carrier well along in construction and about to be launched.

I expect we will see them build somewhere around five carriers before all is said and done...and they will be decent vessels, with strong air-wings and strike groups around them. They will make a large difference in the WESTPAC and already the other nations in the area (Australia, Japan, Korea, and India) are reacting and preparing for that eventuality. So are we. It is a part of what the Pacific pivot is all about.

Now, we are not presenting a stationary target either. With the new technologies, weapons systems, and aircraft the US is bringing online in the next 10-15 years, we, of course will strive to maintain our edge and significant quantitative and qualitative lead.

But there is no doubt that the PLAN will have significantly closed the gap, going from having no fixed-wing, at sea naval aviation arm, to having the second most powerful capability in that area on earth in that same time frame. So what was an almost incalcuable quantum lead by the US will turn into a major lead...but not as much as it was, and something we will (along with the other nations in the area) have to take note of, respect, and plan for.

That's the point I am making.

What is your point ? We are not here to discuss politic. You are entitle to your bias prejudice or red neck attitude But please keep it to yourself
Why should he keep his opinion to himself, Hendrik. You just said he was entitled to it.

If you have nothing to contribute but sneering maybe you should visit other forum that is more inline with your ideology . Very annoying post
Hendrik, Jack has 30 years US Navy experience. His thoughts may annoy you, but IMHO, you should respect that experience and try and glean whatever you can from it...even if it may tend to pop bubbles.

The US Navy and numerous veterans underestimated the Japanese in the 1930s and paid a heavy price for it later. I know, my Dad lived through it as a US Navy combat officer in the PTO. It took two years of hard combat, hard lessons, and a lot of loss of life for the US command to get its head around what was happening and then start pushing it back and rolling it up. I do not believe the Chinese and the PLAN should be underestimated in the least. They clearly have the will and the resource to take on this significant challenge, persevere, and progress at it. They also have their eyes fixed on the more distant goals. Sometimes it is easy to look at the apparent differences and believe they cannot be overcome.

I see huge strides in the last ten years. Perhaps the US lead is still...let's say for arguments sake...10 miles ahead of the Chinese, where the PRC may make up a 1/2 mile a year even if the US keeps its own foot to the metal, and faster if the US lets up in the least. However, ten years ago, the lead the US had was more like 50+ miles because the PLAN had no carrier or modern war vessel capability. That is changing, and rapidly now.

That is what has occurred by the PLAN engaging the technology, putting together arguably the 3rd or 4th best type of carrier in the world (behind only the US super carriers and perhaps the French nuclear carrier at this point) , and now deploying a world class fighter on it. Particularly if they get three such vessels in the water over the next ten years or so.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Sorry Mr. Head, I mean no disrespect, but not knowing what the qualification standards are for both the pilots and the aircraft I must withold my enthusiasm. So far all I have seen are some PR or propaganda pieces for a half assed carrier and some aircraft that due to the lack of catapults will lack sufficient range and the ability to get airborne with a decent load of weapons as to be a negible threat to any serious competitor. Just my 30 years USN experience thinking out loud.

... and the award for a major party pooper goes to.......

C'mon Jack! give credit where it is due. True, what we know are only from pictures and press releases and what not but PLAN has come a long way in getting her up to speed not to mention finally turning her into what she was meant to be.. an ocean going combat STOBAR aircraft carrier. To compare her to a USN CVN and then proceed to chide her for being a' half assed negigible threat' is assinine and childish at best.

Do you remember what she looked like even just a few years ago?

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also before you accuse me of being a PLAN fanboy etc I am USN also.
 

kroko

Senior Member
Sorry Mr. Head, I mean no disrespect, but not knowing what the qualification standards are for both the pilots and the aircraft I must withold my enthusiasm. So far all I have seen are some PR or propaganda pieces for a half assed carrier and some aircraft that due to the lack of catapults will lack sufficient range and the ability to get airborne with a decent load of weapons as to be a negible threat to any serious competitor. Just my 30 years USN experience thinking out loud.

I (and possibly others) dont like the tone of your post. You (may) have 30 years USN experience, but in this forum you are a 1 year-old poster with only 6 posts.

Right now, Liaoning possibly the best carrier outside of USA/France, and for a nation that never operated a carrier before, to do the flights they are doing now without formal assistance from other countries is impressive. Even the chief of J-15 program died fom heart attack. No, its not propaganda.


Sorry, it must be my cynical nature, I don't believe everything that my own gov't puts out either, there is always an agenda.
Much more so in countries where the press is fed on a regular basis by gov't organs. I fully realize that the PLA Navy is in the very early days of its carrier aviation program, which is why I am not overly enthused over the progress so far. It's way to early to be so enthusiastic as some of the posters on this thread are.

You are already showing your bias.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Sorry Mr. Head, I mean no disrespect, but not knowing what the qualification standards are for both the pilots and the aircraft I must withold my enthusiasm. So far all I have seen are some PR or propaganda pieces for a half assed carrier and some aircraft that due to the lack of catapults will lack sufficient range and the ability to get airborne with a decent load of weapons as to be a negible threat to any serious competitor. Just my 30 years USN experience thinking out loud.

Thank you for serving, Mr. Sprat!

While the Liaoning is handicapped by lack of catapults, it's a decent flattop and her CBG (once fully formed) will outclass every other navy roaming in Asia, except the USN. Below is a video of a noted naval expert, Lyle Goldstine (Associate Professor, US Naval War College), revising his assessment of the Liaoning in a recent speech on "China's maritime challenge to the US," and he now believes the PLAN is a serious and growing threat to the US Navy.

[video=youtube;BYmb0pogCVo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYmb0pogCVo[/video]
 

MwRYum

Major
Sorry, it must be my cynical nature, I don't believe everything that my own gov't puts out either, there is always an agenda.
Much more so in countries where the press is fed on a regular basis by gov't organs. I fully realize that the PLA Navy is in the very early days of its carrier aviation program, which is why I am not overly enthused over the progress so far. It's way to early to be so enthusiastic as some of the posters on this thread are.

Such attitude is exactly what China craves the outsiders to have - being underestimated, so they can keep closing the gap while the others being complacent of their lead. A bit of show now and then to prove they're moving into the major league, but wanting everyone keep believing the PLAN is nothing more than bottom-feeder even in 30 years time.

Though it's not like China strive for the same standing as the US - to grow this big you need some major global wars to give cause for expansion.

Right now, China is working on getting enough certified carrier-borne pilots, enough officers and crew manpower pool for carrier ops, building up the software while the hardware still catching up in quantity and quality - J-15 still yet to reach serial production phase, and even in current prototype phase it has yet seen with full payload; first locally built carrier has yet to have its first steel plate cut.

All in all, PLAN carrier group is still 2 decades away from fruition. But nonetheless they're working towards that, so don't write China off so soon. Though for China, they'd certainly hope for something else catch the US attention, best something like what Iraq was, all attention was on the Middle East for 10 years and when the US look up again, they saw a whole different China.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Thank you jacksprat for your service to our country.:D

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