PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

plawolf said:

I'm not so sure about that, the whole point of a demonstration module is to demonstrate the shipyard could build what the designers designed. Otherwise what's the point in building the module at all?

It would not have been some random design they pulled off the internet, but rather a section from an actual design proposed to the navy, and this demonstration module would have been part of the bidding process, to convince the navy that the shipyard could actually deliver on the design they proposed.

The odd thing is the Jiangnan module seems to have a much shallower hanger deck, being only two decks deep, whereas the Dalian design is 3 decks deep.

The decks of the Jiangnan module would need to be 3m in height (which is a bit more than typical for a warship I believe) in order for the hanger to be high enough for the 5.93m J15, and even then its a very tight squeeze!

That makes me believe the Jiangnan module isn't a carrier test module, or at least not for a carrier able to handle J15s.

In all likelihood, I would say that test module is for an LHD rather than full carrier.

If that is the case, I may need to revise my long-held view that the PLAN would start the construction of a second, different carrier design at Jiangnan shortly after, or during the construction of 001A at Dalian.

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I believe that the JN demo module was entirely meant to be a smaller sized module that is deliberately not meant to imitate a full scale carrier module, but rather demonstrate possibly production techniques in the form of a sub-scale example. In other words, I believe they were not showcasing the design of a true carrier module, but rather an "abridged" design intended to showcase certain features on a smaller scale, while also demonstrating their ability to produce a module of a certain simulated small scale.

It was very obvious from the beginning that JN's demo module was not full sized, and its configuration and overall design makes no more sense if it were for a LHA compared to if it were for a carrier, apart from the slight possible trench in the flight deck which may indicate the intended simulation for the presence of a catapult. More importantly, we have no rumours of JN intending to construct any LHA or LHD, but all rumours still point to it constructing 002. When we take all the noise together along with what we see, I think we get a good sense of what may be actually happening.

In short -- Dalian is currently building a carrier, whereas I believe what Jiangnan built was a 1/2 to 2/3 sized module of what a real carrier module would look like.
It's also worth remembering that Dalian is also said to have built their own demo module a while back, in the form of an abridged ski jump module that we've seen at the shipyard in a few photos now and then in the last few years, and from what we've seen, it is also obvious that it is not meant to be part of a real carrier module anymore than Jiangnan's is.

To me, it makes perfect sense for the Chinese Navy to want Dalian and Jiangnan to both produce a demo module to demonstrate the ability to construct a simulated module that is partially representative of an actual carrier module, prior to actually starting work.

Quickie said:

Could it be a module that is near to the bow of the carrier? The hull seems to be getting narrower with the hangar now reduced to 2 deck high, from 3 deck high, as the lowest deck space becomes replaced by the hull bulkhead.

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How would that work? You will end up with a section of the hanger a deck higher than the rest. It would be like having a two storey garage, but the back of it is one storey off the ground. You will need a lift to get anything up there to use the space, which just doesn't make sense to do.

A variable height hanger would only work if it was the upper most part of it being replaced by hull bulkheads so you could still roll aircraft and/or parts under it to use the space for storage.

I know of no carrier that has such a designed hanger. All carrier hangers I have see are uniform in height.

Bltizo said:

I believe that the JN demo module was entirely meant to be a smaller sized module that is deliberately not meant to imitate a full scale carrier module, but rather demonstrate possibly production techniques in the form of a sub-scale example. In other words, I believe they were not showcasing the design of a true carrier module, but rather an "abridged" design intended to showcase certain features on a smaller scale, while also demonstrating their ability to produce a module of a certain simulated small scale.

Click to expand...

That makes good sense if they were building a reduced scale mock up to demonstrate construction capability and validate the design without having to spend the extra time and money building a true sized module would take.

However, the general layout and design should still need to be fairly consistent with the intended full scale design to serve the purpose of a demonstration module.

As such, if we blow up the Jiangnan module by about 1/3 to bring the hangers in line with the one at the Dalian yard, we can see that the Jiangnan design appears to be for a much larger carrier than the one Dalian is building.

To me, it makes perfect sense for the Chinese Navy to want Dalian and Jiangnan to both produce a demo module to demonstrate the ability to construct a simulated module that is partially representative of an actual carrier module, prior to actually starting work.

Click to expand...

Yes, that was my thinking all along, I just had not considered that they modules were scaled down, which would have ruled the Jiangnan module out as a carrier module since the hanger would have been too low.

But it being a 2/3 scale mock-up would make perfect sense and fall right in line with everything I have been expecting and saying for years with regards to how I expect the PLAN to go about building its first generation carrier fleet.

plawolf said:

That makes good sense if they were building a reduced scale mock up to demonstrate construction capability and validate the design without having to spend the extra time and money building a true sized module would take.

However, the general layout and design should still need to be fairly consistent with the intended full scale design to serve the purpose of a demonstration module.

As such, if we blow up the Jiangnan module by about 1/3 to bring the hangers in line with the one at the Dalian yard, we can see that the Jiangnan design appears to be for a much larger carrier than the one Dalian is building.

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Well, it's hard to tell just how big a 1/3 larger JN demo module would be relative to DL's carrier, which has yet to have its flight deck modules attached.
But I myself wouldnt' be surprised if 002 were meaningfully larger than 001A either.

Yes, that was my thinking all along, I just had not considered that they modules were scaled down, which would have ruled the Jiangnan module out as a carrier module since the hanger would have been too low.

But it being a 2/3 scale mock-up would make perfect sense and fall right in line with everything I have been expecting and saying for years with regards to how I expect the PLAN to go about building its first generation carrier fleet.

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Yeah, I had briefly considered the possibility of the demo module being for an LHA/LHD, but in addition to the other reasons I listed in my previous post, it also didn't make sense that the hangar was so low, as it would barely be able to accomodate a Z-9 or Z-20 height helicopter, let alone a Kamov or a Z-8.

Quickie said:

Could it be a module that is near to the bow of the carrier? The hull seems to be getting narrower with the hangar now reduced to 2 deck high, from 3 deck high, as the lowest deck space becomes replaced by the hull bulkhead.

Click to expand...

No.

plawolf said:

How would that work? You will end up with a section of the hanger a deck higher than the rest. It would be like having a two storey garage, but the back of it is one storey off the ground. You will need a lift to get anything up there to use the space, which just doesn't make sense to do.

A variable height hanger would only work if it was the upper most part of it being replaced by hull bulkheads so you could still roll aircraft and/or parts under it to use the space for storage.

I know of no carrier that has such a designed hanger. All carrier hangers I have see are uniform in height.

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That is not in anyway what I was suggesting.

I was talking about the carrier bow section where the hull starts to narrow and where the hangar would start to end. As the bow section starts to narrow, the hull bulkhead would start to narrow from a lower level to the higher, taking up space from the lowest deck first and then to the 2 higher decks.

Obviously, the higher decks would not have enough space for major maintenance work and may only be used as office spaces overlooking the hangar.

that module at JN was one of my reasons to believe in a smaller carrier, to be build in JN;
there is no reason to produce a module in 2/3 scale ...

Sczepan said:

that module at JN was one of my reasons to believe in a smaller carrier, to be build in JN;
there is no reason to produce a module in 2/3 scale ...

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The Chinese navy almost didn't want 001A which is at least the same size as Liaoning or maybe even slightly bigger. Why will they want to build an even smaller carrier than Liaoning? The goal for Chinese navy has always been super carrier like the USN.

Liaoning and 001A both are more of a stepping stones for PLAN. It doesn't make sense the JN carrier (002) will be a smaller than Liaoning.

Bltizo said:

It is worth noting that the module in the first picture was from a few years ago, produced at Jiangnan, and was a demo module, not an actual real module for an actual carrier...

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Yes...I know that.

Bltizo said:

So I wouldn't place too much weight on comparing the two, because they're so different in terms of what they're meant to be.

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My intent was not to place "weight" on it. Clearly, they spent considerable time and money creating that module...and you have to believe the demo was to indicate that they felt they could do and build towards what the PLAN wanted.

Anyhow, my intent was not to say that the modeul was for a ship...clearly it was not.

It was simply to see how their thinking and actual production has evolved.

plawolf said:

...the whole point of a demonstration module is to demonstrate the shipyard could build what the designers designed. Otherwise what's the point in building the module at all?

It would not have been some random design they pulled off the internet, but rather a section from an actual design proposed to the navy, and this demonstration module would have been part of the bidding process, to convince the navy that the shipyard could actually deliver on the design they proposed.

The odd thing is the Jiangnan module seems to have a much shallower hanger deck, being only two decks deep, whereas the Dalian design is 3 decks deep.

The decks of the Jiangnan module would need to be 3m in height (which is a bit more than typical for a warship I believe) in order for the hanger to be high enough for the 5.93m J15, and even then its a very tight squeeze!

In all likelihood, I would say that test module is for an LHD rather than full carrier.

If that is the case, I may need to revise my long-held view that the PLAN would start the construction of a second, different carrier design at Jiangnan shortly after, or during the construction of 001A at Dalian.

Click to expand...

Excellent...this was exactly the type of thing I was looking at too...and the type of discussion I hoped would ensue.

For two reasons.

1) Because it is in fact interesting to see how the module, which was IMHO clearly built to show the PLAN that they could do what the PLAN wanted, differs from what is being built on the carrier.

2) To get us away from the ongoing, repetitive argument/discussion about who was potentially insulting/disparaging who and why.

Hehehe.

Anyhow, great comments wolf, and for what it is worth, I agree.

The module was most probably directed at some different requirement for the PLAn and not the carrier itself.

Which raises all sorts of interesting conjecture.